The idea of men becoming better is silly. A man's character should be the same regardless of the behavior of those around him. Some people are more service oriented, and if a man or woman is naturally geared toward serving their spouse, and it makes them happy, then that's fine. The more submissive spouse needs to realize though that it isn't anything forced onto them by divine edict, and if their spouse abuses it, it's time to correct that.
Galen Faulkes - 12 years ago
In all this Christian submission bullshit, you are forgetting consensual BDSM. Although usually, but not always confined to Te bedroom, laundry room, basement, garage, and other play areas, it can and does work.
Bonnie - 12 years ago
I have witnessed such relationships in my own family. In one the wife is submissive until she rebels a bit & they have problems. He REFUSES to acknowledge that he is in any way responsible. He won't talk about it . PERIOD. He is an arrogant pompous ass who demands to be waited on by his wife even when she has just had a baby. He is ALWAYS right of course.
In the second the wife is always submissive. It seems to be a loving relationship although he is condescending to his wife and he too is ALWAYS right. I think both of the husbands have become more controlling over time.
LMcC - 12 years ago
Unilateral submission DOES NOT WORK. If it did, I would have married much earlier and would have had the perfect marriage. Instead, all it did was teach me to expect terrible behavior from "good Christian men". and not think very highly of myself. The last time I tried unilateral submission in a relationship, it only made my then-boyfriend even worse in his behavior, and I nearly lost him to another woman who was anything but submissive.
BTW, anyone else ever notice that the men who uphold submission of the wives so strongly never give a rat's behind about loving their wives as Christ loved the church? In fact, I can guarantee that the more a man harps on submission, the worse he treats his wife.
It seems to me that submission has been prostituted to mean something it really isn't. That is that the wife is a 'slave' to her husband and he can do anything he wants. That is not true and really leads to total inequality of a relationship.
My wife is essentially smarter than I am and it stems from her upbringing. Yet she always looks to me for the final decision on matters but we collaborate on it together. I always get her input on most matters rather and just doing it. There is the old saying 'Behind every man is a good woman'. This is true-after all, the woman is a helper to the man in relationships. When this is cut from any relation it upsets the balance of the union. Yet when a man lord's his stature over a woman his has caused unbalance in the union and deceives himself.
There differences in all of this is the truth of what submission is and is not and the love that binds it all together. When we repackage these issues because of our own hurts and/or our bias' then we deceive ourselves. It really it a timeless truth that gets lost in the socialization of culture when the subject is perverted.
JW
Jane - 12 years ago
I grew up having submission to my husband hammered into my head and heart. The older I got, the more absurd it seemed. I'm an adult too so why wouldn't my opinion matter? Why was I not allowed to make decisions without someone else "allowing" them? Being a perpetual child was not something I looked forward to. I strongly suspected that some women were just trying to escape personal responsibility by throwing all of it on another person. I didn't make that wrong decision, he did. When she marries a man who wants all the power, the dysfunctional circle is complete. But that marital Hell was not to be my fate after all. I married someone who not only allowed me to make decisions, but expected it.
The women I grew up with just couldn't understand it. They would ask me who has final say in our marriage. I would say both. Then they ask again but who has FINAL say. I would tell them that we make important decisions together. We talk, sometimes through the night, about pros and cons and end up with a solution we both agree on. They would shake their heads and say that is unbiblical. What, being of the same mind is unbiblical?
Lisa - 13 years ago
I think that, as with ANYthing, a balance needs to be struck. I don't believe in complete submission to my husband at the expense of myself. He respects me as a person... an individual with a mind of my own, opinions of my own, and a complete sense of self. I see him the same. However, I have observed that as I have gradually changed my ways (becoming more submissive) he also has changed. His self esteem has improved, he has more self confidence, and he sees himself in a more positive way. In fact, perhaps it's not submission that I advocate as much as it is respect. I respect him and don't feel the need to "cross" him just to be obstinate. I will admit I have done things like that. It's pretty immature to act that way. I have enough confidence in myself as I grow older that I can respectfully submit to him and not feel that I am completely "losing" myself. Then again, we are not "extreme" in any aspect. So, that may be partly why we work well together. I am all for my husband taking more of a lead in our relationship. I got tired of feeling as though I had to carry not only my own burdens, but his as well. Our relationship now is more Christ-like, in my opinion. People who view submission as a negative thing have a skewed interpretation of the behavior. Balance, people, balance!
In His Image - 13 years ago
I personally an saddened that such a place even has a need for existence. A Godly husband doesn't order his wife around and take advantage of her but instead appreciates her help in their relationship. A wife submitting to allow the husband to be the head of the household isn't submitting herself as a slave. 21 years of submitting myself the the Lord and being a submissive stay at home mommy to 7 little blessing has been a true joy. My husband does not take my work for granted however and always asks for my opinion and help in most day to day decisions. We are a team...he is the head coach and I work closely with him to make our home run smoothly. He's never taken me for granted nor I him. We have conflicts now and then but not related to his leadership of our family. I know that God is leading him to take care of us and as long as he follows God's lead, I couldn't be happier. I guess my only real thoughts here are that it's sad that there are men that would use scripture to make someones life less than joyful and even more upsetting that there are women who will never know the love of a husband led by Christ to care for her. Perhaps part of submitting to your husband is building him up and giving him strength to do and be all he's called to do to care for you and your family and by doing so you both are better of as is your marriage and your family.
Pamela - 13 years ago
No. The idea that a woman must submit to her husband in all things is unbiblical. It is a recipe for further dysfunction, oppression and abuse; moreover, unquestioning submission creates a deepening co-dependency that does not encourage spiritual maturity and growth in husband or wife. The biblical concept of submission is mutual - between brothers and sisters in Christ.
We the church, the people of God, are the body of Christ which was a metaphor that Paul was quite fond of. It is a picture of the mystery of the union between Christ and the church. Each of us are given gifts for the purpose of "equipping his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ". We are to grow and build one another up in love. We need one another in order for the church (i.e. the body of Christ, which is us) to be fully functional. After all, as Paul states to the Corinthians, the eye cannot say to the hand 'I have no need of you'. So we need one another in this journey that we are on.
Paul continues this metaphor into Eph 5.21-33. He starts "be submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ". We are to be submissive to one another within the body of Christ, within the church. Why? Because we are to "walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God" (v.2). We are to be radically different in our lifestyles and in our characters from the rest of the world. And the law that rules us is the Law of Love. This Law of Love is evidenced in life of Christ - He only did what his Father was doing. He submitted to his Father even to the point of death. If we are to live lives of submission to our Father (and we are), then we will live lives of submission to one another out of reverence for Christ.
What does this mean though? What does submission look like? It means to lay down "my right" to have things my way. That is really all it means.
This, by the way, is a genderless truth.
We all want our own way - male or female, husband or wife, parent or child, employer or employee. This is the essence of sin, is it not? We each have our own little kingdoms and we each want desperately to rule as kings or queens in those kingdoms. Conversion is simply laying down our right to rule and inviting Jesus into the center of our lives and beings. In other words, we submit our lives as living sacrifices to Christ.
This holds true in our marriages. We lay down our "rights" to get what we want.
Again this is a genderless truth.
We look out for one another, we become each other's harbor of safety (though ultimately, it is God who is our refuge). Paul continues the body metaphor when discussing marriage and he describes a great mystery. When we marry, we become unified in a way not unlike the union between Christ and the church. The husband is the kephale or head (meaning our "noggin") and the wife is the body. The body cannot function if there is no head but neither can the head function without the body. We need each other! We are one and what God has put together, Jesus said, let no one tear apart. Why? Because it would like decapitation, that is why. Ew. Very messy and very devastating to both parties (as well as any children involved).
A quick note of interest. Paul only talks about the wives in three passages. There is a reason for this. Wives were expected in that culture to be submissive to their husbands. This really is not a new idea to the wives in the Ephesian churches. Paul does not have to spend a lot of time here because they already pretty much knew that.
But Paul takes eight verses to discuss how the husbands should be treating their wives. Why is this? Because men, in Paul's time, were not expected to love their wives. If they treated their wives well, then they were per
A relationship must fit the nature of the people IN the relationship. Some people are naturally submissive, some are naturally more dominant, it's neither more or less godly, one way or the other, and it's certainly not a sex-linked trait.
Faith may aid in living up to expectations - but only in the sense that a supportive context is better than an unsupportive one.
And if your faith predicts outcomes that you and/or your spouse cannot possibly live up to, eventually you will lose your faith, your spouse, and your community. Which is probably a good thing, in the abstract. But it is also a deeply painful loss.
Ultimately, it's better to adjust faith and relationships through growth and learning together. But if one partner sees the needs and indeed, the actual will of the other person as a threat, well, it's time to rip off that bandaid. For the only path is downhill.
You see, yes, a submissive heart can improve a man, if he's interested in improving. But he must choose to be. If he takes it as his due... it will make him even worse, and the damage will not be limited to you. It may make a better man, but I'd say it's even more likely to empower a monster.
Yes! I do know a man like that... My husband. He is a kind-hearted soul and my total and complete obedience and submission has helped him grow into a stronger man, comfortable in his masculine power and his role as the leader of our family and home. His strength has in turned help me to become ever more obedient and godly.
Submission does NOT equal doormat. I lived for a long time not knowing the difference. Most women who would say that submission would only make their men more overbearing or more of a dictator need to bear in mind that THEY chose those men. If you marry a man who has the potential to take advantage of you and walk all over you (ie: doormat) then don't complain when he does just that. Chances are that he would and does that regardless of your submission.
Submission is not Michael Pearl's original idea... it's God's. The Word of God is infallible and if He tells me to be submissive to my husband then I'm going to do just that. I'm not doing it to gain the approval of man (not even my husband) I'm doing it out of obedience and that, my friends, is what God blesses. True submission does not include complaining about said submission. We are commanded to respect our husbands, respect and submission go hand in hand.
My marriage has gone from one extreme to the other. I had NO respect for my husband when we first got married and never submitted to his authority (or anyone elses for that matter). But once we got under some Godly teaching and began to seek out the truth for ourselves by reading God's Word then we made the necessary changes and I have seen our marriage do an about face turn and begin to charge in the right direction. My husband has taken the lead in our family because I have stepped completely out of that position. If he makes a mistake (like the story of the internet in the bedroom) he is soley responsible for the consequenses of those decisions. Men that have never been allowed to lead, much like children who have never been allowed to make their own decisions WILL make the wrong ones from time to time. We all make bad choices now and again, but when our husbands make a mistake it is our job as his help mate to come along side him and encourage him and uplift him, not say (or even imply) I TOLD YOU SO.
I know I will have many who will disagree with me, but I can assure you that in more cases than not, the people who disagree are looking at marriage from worldly eyes and not godly ones.
Be blessed.
Lynnie burns - 13 years ago
Yes, I have seen wonderful families formed when we began to understand the concept of wifely submission. Before these families would be in consant strife as either husband or wife would battle each other to get their own "way". Now, with the understanding of the scriptures, these families have been blessed considerably by allowing first, God to have authority, and then second, for the husband to head up the household. In my own family, my dh asks me my opinion, asks me to gather info on my desires, but ultimately makes the deciions (and if I've done my research right, I bet I "win" more often than he does!! - but then again, he is a true and spiritual man of God, and there aren't alot of those (if he wasn't, I probably couldn't be on the bandwagon for wifely submission either)
Pepsi - 13 years ago
I haven't personally had a lot of luck with submission, though I am fortunate to be married to a genuinely loving Christian man who has supported myself and our children, and supported me in my desire to return to work as the kids got older.
But he has a stubborn streak. Despite my adamant refusal to agree to letting the kids have the internet in their rooms (I have read the expert advice on this issue!), he supplied it anyway. I was furious, naturally, but felt that I should do the submissive wife thing.
Now, the submission camp would argue that the results justify their position, but I'm still not convinced. Eventually, we discovered that our son had stolen our credit card details and was using his bedroom internet connection to run up a $700 bill on online gaming. It took every ounce of my willpower not to say "I told you so" (though I might have hinted it!), and his father finally saw the wisdom in my argument and removed the internet connection from his room.
Wifely submission MIGHT have won the day, but I would have preferred that my husband (bless him!) had had enough respect for my opinion to have listened in the first place.
I really believe that the doctrine being touted by QF is just misogynism by another name, and that the church needs to start teaching a more balanced version of the submission doctrine before someone gets seriously hurt.
e5 - 14 years ago
Once I had quite the crush on fundamentalism, but (through sheer blind luck) married a man with a heart of gold. When we were first married, I tried submitting to his "authority" when we couldn't come to agreement otherwise. It enraged him so much, he would huff and complain, and then do exactly what I had wanted before lowering my eyes in genuine meekness. Noticing this pattern, I began to realize that "graciously submitting" was horribly unfair, to him! Now it's nothing but a joke between us. (But even so, I think obedience would still work if I ever got mad enough to use it!)
I have never witnessed it improve a relationship. I must admit, I know some seemingly healthy complementarian couples but the wife tends to be very easygoing and the husband tends to be of a kind and gentle spirit.
Personally, it nearly ruined our marriage and made me suicidal.
Dh and my ralationship improved as we embraced an egalitarian mindset and improved that much more when I started school and took on an identity beyone that of a wife and mother. The rest of the family had to start pulling their own collective weight including DH and he has risen to the occasion.
shadowspring - 14 years ago
Hahahaha! So does that description "bitter women who are just resentful in general" include you, Darlene? Tina? Crystal? Jeanette?
Insulting the character of those who disagree with you is no way to advance your point.
Everyone has a free will. Loving someone does NOT guarantee they will love you back. Serving someone does NOT guarantee they will serve you back. And are you also saying that if you submit to someone they will in turn submit to you? (You used the terms love serve submit as being what you sow that you will get in return.)
You really misunderstand the way life works, my dear. I pity you, because reality is going to whomp you upside the heard hard one day, and you will have to admit that you had a very shallow understanding of your Biblical principle of sowing and reaping, which sounds a lot like karma and the good old bar advice "what goes around comes around."
Darlene - 14 years ago
Of course this is how it works. You love serve and submit your heart to ANYONE and they will indeed return the kindness with love nad service of their own. You cant sow love and reap hate. It works.It is the law of the harvest. These sites are mostly frequented by bitter women who are just resentful in general.
Ex-Adriel - 14 years ago
I want to second the opinions that wifely submission doesn't necessarily make a man better or worse. It CAN very easily hurt, and in my opinion, it most often does hurt, but it isn't an if-then equation.
Sadly I think that the personalities of men and women that drive them to live that lifestyle has more to do with the abusive cycle that ensues than the actual idea of 'submission' and patriarchy. However, if you're tending towards abusive relationships, acting out the ideals of submission certainly isn't going to help things any.
Mary Caruso - 14 years ago
For a woman to expect a man to take care of her is a dangerous way to live. Not only is she putting herself at risk, but also her children. There is nothing good about one human being totally dependent on another. Living one's life that way inhibits growth and self esteem and can and often does lead to depression and worthlessness. In my personal opinion, it is a way to avoid responsibility for one's self. When you can put someone else in charge of your life, whether it be God or a spouse, then one doesn't have to make the hard choices or gain the strength it sometimes takes to get through life.
We each have the personal responsibility to grow and develop into the best person we can be..and that is something we must do for ourselves, no one else can do it for us.
Tina - 14 years ago
It is not the submission that makes or breaks it. A bad guy will be worse. Submission is NOT being a doormat. At our home he is the leader but it is like he is steering the car but we are both navigating. Only one can steer but he's not stupid enough to think he knows the way to a place he's never been without any help. We work together. So the idea of doormat submission is horrid in my opinion but the idea of supporting, honoring submission with him respecting and honoring you in return is a whole different thing.
Crystal - 14 years ago
My husband has become a better man, but not because of my submission alone. He recognizes things in himself that are flawed and works on them, and he has the utmost respect for my opinion, and requests my input in all that we do.He is an amazing man of God. My submition allows him to lead our family, and I can't wait to see where we go next! We have four children, and do not plan to have more. God has truely blessed me in giving me this man for my husband.
Headless Unicorn Guy - 14 years ago
All I can tell you as a single guy is the thought of the Widdle Christian Wifey ("What is Thy will, Milord Husband? How may I better Submit?") both attracts and repels me.
Attracts because after all the times I've been burned by women, she'd be "safe" and I know she wouldn't dare ditch or dump me like the others.
Repels because you can't have any respect for a doormat like that and I KNOW in the absence of such respect I'd start trying to throw my weight around -- Hard. Then harder because in the absence of respect I'd start thinking about payback for what other women have done to me, and things would just deteriorate from there.
Yes, the attraction of "safety" and finally being able to marry would be there, but so would the danger of me going out of control in the absence of any respect. The archetype of female which has always attracted me is the "Cuddly Amazon" -- soft and nurturing, but with a core of tungsten steel and strength of personality. Widdle Christian Wifey (TM) has no core. All nurturing, no strength. And I can't take on all the strength for two without breaking myself.
Jeanette - 14 years ago
I am absolutely sorry that these women had bad experiences with submission. I personally did as well with my first husband. However, with my second husband who died, and my new husband who took me and 7 children on (We now have 9) it was totally opposite. Submission was a wonderful gift. A blessings from God. If a man is a true man of God it is a beautiful freeing place to be. It is an honor to serve a man who serves back as Christ served/loved the Church. When my husband who died was gone, I realized even more what a blessing I had in having a man who did step up and be the man of God he was called to be. I missed that umbrella of protection I had in having a man who took his calling seriously. I wasn't meant to be the head of the household, but had to step up and do so. It was the most difficult thing I ever had to do after experiencing such a wonderful, blessed life as the wife I was called to be. I hated not having that gift, that blessing. I am so blessed again to have someone who responds with the heart God would have a true man of God respond with again. It was a lonely, ugly place to not have that.
My husband who passed away wasn't always such a good man of God. He was more of a heathen than I knew when we married. There was much in his life that was disturbing and heartbreaking. Addictions I wasn't aware of, sexual issues that broke my heart, control issues. As I became more of a submissive wife, gently reminding him in private about things that bothered me...using the word, the closer he came to the Lord. I watched as he got into the word, so he would know more than me. I observed the change in him from a selfish, self centered man into a giving family centered man whom I could trust. He still would pick on silly things, like which direction the silver wear was in the drawer, or if his shirts were a certain direction on the hanger, but I understood that these were little things I could let go of. In my submission I let him be all that God wanted him to be. I saw God's promises about winning his heart to God manifest in his life. The day before he died he thanked me for being the woman of God I was, for loving him as he had never been loved, for allowing him to be in headship over our home. It was if he knew our time together was coming to an end. He had actually been telling me similar things for months before the accident happened. I know I had won his heart, not only to God, but to me. He loved me as I know a man is supposed to love a woman. I was a woman blessed beyond measure to have had the opportunity to help him be the best man he could be. I lost the other half of me the day he died. I absolutely believe it when the word says we will become one. It was if my soul, my very being had been ripped in half and there was a huge open sore there.
By the Grace of God, I am now married again. I am once again trying to lift my husband up, to help him grow in the Lord by giving him the honor the Lord specifically asks me too. Again, I am blessed beyond measure.
Once again, my family grows. My womb is Gods, my being my husbands. We are becoming more ONE every day. I love my calling. I love being a keeper at home. I adore the idea of more babies, even though I am now a grandmother. I love the idea of as many years as the Lord will give me serving my precious husband. It pleases my spirit to please my Love/Lord. The man that God put in my life as my Lord. I love that word for him.
Mo - 14 years ago
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Giving your spouse all or most of the power in the relationship WILL eventually make that person--whether male or female, straight or gay-- abusive. This situation can be compounded when the husband has all the power because men biologically already have so much of what is, in some situations, an advantage: they typically are physically stronger than women and do not give birth to kids. Women may feel tied to their man because they are pregnant and unable to work.
What makes good relationships work: cooperation, trust, compromise, and mutual respect. NOT kowtowing and submission.
Lodrelhai - 14 years ago
A fourth option would have been nice. I've never seen it, and I don't believe it's possible for wifely submission to improve the husband, but I think it is possible for it not to destroy the relationship. My mom was all about wifely submission when I was young - little surprise, raised as she was with abuse and domination in everything. But my dad wouldn't have it. He let her know he needed her support, and her opinions, whether he agreed with them or not. What's a good submissive wife to do, when her husband wants her to speak her mind?!
My mom still defers to dad's opinion a lot, will second-guess herself, and constantly apologizes when things aren't perfect - to the point that it actually frustrates dad, because he's not expecting perfect. But she does make decisions, and do her own things, and enjoy herself without worrying if she's allowed to. My dad's a rare person, and he helped heal a lot of my mom's wounds from her childhood. I wish there were more people like him, and I hope I'm half as good as he is.
betty - 14 years ago
Yep, I'm with Wubby. Although it wasn't anywhere near 24 years, submission was just something he took advantage of. The very idea of the question is an oxymoron. If his wife submitting to him affects his behaviour, he can't possibly be getting to be a "better person." The only way he could become a better person in such a situation is to help his wife get some self-esteem. Thank you, Vyckie, it's wonderful to see other ex-submissives. It really helps me stay strong in the face of all the adversity.
Wubby - 15 years ago
I was married for 24 years, and always took a submissive behavior, toward my ex, and he never became any better. Although he did become worse!
Its sad that 26% are living in a fantasy world.
The idea of men becoming better is silly. A man's character should be the same regardless of the behavior of those around him. Some people are more service oriented, and if a man or woman is naturally geared toward serving their spouse, and it makes them happy, then that's fine. The more submissive spouse needs to realize though that it isn't anything forced onto them by divine edict, and if their spouse abuses it, it's time to correct that.
In all this Christian submission bullshit, you are forgetting consensual BDSM. Although usually, but not always confined to Te bedroom, laundry room, basement, garage, and other play areas, it can and does work.
I have witnessed such relationships in my own family. In one the wife is submissive until she rebels a bit & they have problems. He REFUSES to acknowledge that he is in any way responsible. He won't talk about it . PERIOD. He is an arrogant pompous ass who demands to be waited on by his wife even when she has just had a baby. He is ALWAYS right of course.
In the second the wife is always submissive. It seems to be a loving relationship although he is condescending to his wife and he too is ALWAYS right. I think both of the husbands have become more controlling over time.
Unilateral submission DOES NOT WORK. If it did, I would have married much earlier and would have had the perfect marriage. Instead, all it did was teach me to expect terrible behavior from "good Christian men". and not think very highly of myself. The last time I tried unilateral submission in a relationship, it only made my then-boyfriend even worse in his behavior, and I nearly lost him to another woman who was anything but submissive.
BTW, anyone else ever notice that the men who uphold submission of the wives so strongly never give a rat's behind about loving their wives as Christ loved the church? In fact, I can guarantee that the more a man harps on submission, the worse he treats his wife.
It seems to me that submission has been prostituted to mean something it really isn't. That is that the wife is a 'slave' to her husband and he can do anything he wants. That is not true and really leads to total inequality of a relationship.
My wife is essentially smarter than I am and it stems from her upbringing. Yet she always looks to me for the final decision on matters but we collaborate on it together. I always get her input on most matters rather and just doing it. There is the old saying 'Behind every man is a good woman'. This is true-after all, the woman is a helper to the man in relationships. When this is cut from any relation it upsets the balance of the union. Yet when a man lord's his stature over a woman his has caused unbalance in the union and deceives himself.
There differences in all of this is the truth of what submission is and is not and the love that binds it all together. When we repackage these issues because of our own hurts and/or our bias' then we deceive ourselves. It really it a timeless truth that gets lost in the socialization of culture when the subject is perverted.
JW
I grew up having submission to my husband hammered into my head and heart. The older I got, the more absurd it seemed. I'm an adult too so why wouldn't my opinion matter? Why was I not allowed to make decisions without someone else "allowing" them? Being a perpetual child was not something I looked forward to. I strongly suspected that some women were just trying to escape personal responsibility by throwing all of it on another person. I didn't make that wrong decision, he did. When she marries a man who wants all the power, the dysfunctional circle is complete. But that marital Hell was not to be my fate after all. I married someone who not only allowed me to make decisions, but expected it.
The women I grew up with just couldn't understand it. They would ask me who has final say in our marriage. I would say both. Then they ask again but who has FINAL say. I would tell them that we make important decisions together. We talk, sometimes through the night, about pros and cons and end up with a solution we both agree on. They would shake their heads and say that is unbiblical. What, being of the same mind is unbiblical?
I think that, as with ANYthing, a balance needs to be struck. I don't believe in complete submission to my husband at the expense of myself. He respects me as a person... an individual with a mind of my own, opinions of my own, and a complete sense of self. I see him the same. However, I have observed that as I have gradually changed my ways (becoming more submissive) he also has changed. His self esteem has improved, he has more self confidence, and he sees himself in a more positive way. In fact, perhaps it's not submission that I advocate as much as it is respect. I respect him and don't feel the need to "cross" him just to be obstinate. I will admit I have done things like that. It's pretty immature to act that way. I have enough confidence in myself as I grow older that I can respectfully submit to him and not feel that I am completely "losing" myself. Then again, we are not "extreme" in any aspect. So, that may be partly why we work well together. I am all for my husband taking more of a lead in our relationship. I got tired of feeling as though I had to carry not only my own burdens, but his as well. Our relationship now is more Christ-like, in my opinion. People who view submission as a negative thing have a skewed interpretation of the behavior. Balance, people, balance!
I personally an saddened that such a place even has a need for existence. A Godly husband doesn't order his wife around and take advantage of her but instead appreciates her help in their relationship. A wife submitting to allow the husband to be the head of the household isn't submitting herself as a slave. 21 years of submitting myself the the Lord and being a submissive stay at home mommy to 7 little blessing has been a true joy. My husband does not take my work for granted however and always asks for my opinion and help in most day to day decisions. We are a team...he is the head coach and I work closely with him to make our home run smoothly. He's never taken me for granted nor I him. We have conflicts now and then but not related to his leadership of our family. I know that God is leading him to take care of us and as long as he follows God's lead, I couldn't be happier. I guess my only real thoughts here are that it's sad that there are men that would use scripture to make someones life less than joyful and even more upsetting that there are women who will never know the love of a husband led by Christ to care for her. Perhaps part of submitting to your husband is building him up and giving him strength to do and be all he's called to do to care for you and your family and by doing so you both are better of as is your marriage and your family.
No. The idea that a woman must submit to her husband in all things is unbiblical. It is a recipe for further dysfunction, oppression and abuse; moreover, unquestioning submission creates a deepening co-dependency that does not encourage spiritual maturity and growth in husband or wife. The biblical concept of submission is mutual - between brothers and sisters in Christ.
We the church, the people of God, are the body of Christ which was a metaphor that Paul was quite fond of. It is a picture of the mystery of the union between Christ and the church. Each of us are given gifts for the purpose of "equipping his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ". We are to grow and build one another up in love. We need one another in order for the church (i.e. the body of Christ, which is us) to be fully functional. After all, as Paul states to the Corinthians, the eye cannot say to the hand 'I have no need of you'. So we need one another in this journey that we are on.
Paul continues this metaphor into Eph 5.21-33. He starts "be submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ". We are to be submissive to one another within the body of Christ, within the church. Why? Because we are to "walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God" (v.2). We are to be radically different in our lifestyles and in our characters from the rest of the world. And the law that rules us is the Law of Love. This Law of Love is evidenced in life of Christ - He only did what his Father was doing. He submitted to his Father even to the point of death. If we are to live lives of submission to our Father (and we are), then we will live lives of submission to one another out of reverence for Christ.
What does this mean though? What does submission look like? It means to lay down "my right" to have things my way. That is really all it means.
This, by the way, is a genderless truth.
We all want our own way - male or female, husband or wife, parent or child, employer or employee. This is the essence of sin, is it not? We each have our own little kingdoms and we each want desperately to rule as kings or queens in those kingdoms. Conversion is simply laying down our right to rule and inviting Jesus into the center of our lives and beings. In other words, we submit our lives as living sacrifices to Christ.
This holds true in our marriages. We lay down our "rights" to get what we want.
Again this is a genderless truth.
We look out for one another, we become each other's harbor of safety (though ultimately, it is God who is our refuge). Paul continues the body metaphor when discussing marriage and he describes a great mystery. When we marry, we become unified in a way not unlike the union between Christ and the church. The husband is the kephale or head (meaning our "noggin") and the wife is the body. The body cannot function if there is no head but neither can the head function without the body. We need each other! We are one and what God has put together, Jesus said, let no one tear apart. Why? Because it would like decapitation, that is why. Ew. Very messy and very devastating to both parties (as well as any children involved).
A quick note of interest. Paul only talks about the wives in three passages. There is a reason for this. Wives were expected in that culture to be submissive to their husbands. This really is not a new idea to the wives in the Ephesian churches. Paul does not have to spend a lot of time here because they already pretty much knew that.
But Paul takes eight verses to discuss how the husbands should be treating their wives. Why is this? Because men, in Paul's time, were not expected to love their wives. If they treated their wives well, then they were per
A relationship must fit the nature of the people IN the relationship. Some people are naturally submissive, some are naturally more dominant, it's neither more or less godly, one way or the other, and it's certainly not a sex-linked trait.
Faith may aid in living up to expectations - but only in the sense that a supportive context is better than an unsupportive one.
And if your faith predicts outcomes that you and/or your spouse cannot possibly live up to, eventually you will lose your faith, your spouse, and your community. Which is probably a good thing, in the abstract. But it is also a deeply painful loss.
Ultimately, it's better to adjust faith and relationships through growth and learning together. But if one partner sees the needs and indeed, the actual will of the other person as a threat, well, it's time to rip off that bandaid. For the only path is downhill.
You see, yes, a submissive heart can improve a man, if he's interested in improving. But he must choose to be. If he takes it as his due... it will make him even worse, and the damage will not be limited to you. It may make a better man, but I'd say it's even more likely to empower a monster.
Yes! I do know a man like that... My husband. He is a kind-hearted soul and my total and complete obedience and submission has helped him grow into a stronger man, comfortable in his masculine power and his role as the leader of our family and home. His strength has in turned help me to become ever more obedient and godly.
Submission does NOT equal doormat. I lived for a long time not knowing the difference. Most women who would say that submission would only make their men more overbearing or more of a dictator need to bear in mind that THEY chose those men. If you marry a man who has the potential to take advantage of you and walk all over you (ie: doormat) then don't complain when he does just that. Chances are that he would and does that regardless of your submission.
Submission is not Michael Pearl's original idea... it's God's. The Word of God is infallible and if He tells me to be submissive to my husband then I'm going to do just that. I'm not doing it to gain the approval of man (not even my husband) I'm doing it out of obedience and that, my friends, is what God blesses. True submission does not include complaining about said submission. We are commanded to respect our husbands, respect and submission go hand in hand.
My marriage has gone from one extreme to the other. I had NO respect for my husband when we first got married and never submitted to his authority (or anyone elses for that matter). But once we got under some Godly teaching and began to seek out the truth for ourselves by reading God's Word then we made the necessary changes and I have seen our marriage do an about face turn and begin to charge in the right direction. My husband has taken the lead in our family because I have stepped completely out of that position. If he makes a mistake (like the story of the internet in the bedroom) he is soley responsible for the consequenses of those decisions. Men that have never been allowed to lead, much like children who have never been allowed to make their own decisions WILL make the wrong ones from time to time. We all make bad choices now and again, but when our husbands make a mistake it is our job as his help mate to come along side him and encourage him and uplift him, not say (or even imply) I TOLD YOU SO.
I know I will have many who will disagree with me, but I can assure you that in more cases than not, the people who disagree are looking at marriage from worldly eyes and not godly ones.
Be blessed.
Yes, I have seen wonderful families formed when we began to understand the concept of wifely submission. Before these families would be in consant strife as either husband or wife would battle each other to get their own "way". Now, with the understanding of the scriptures, these families have been blessed considerably by allowing first, God to have authority, and then second, for the husband to head up the household. In my own family, my dh asks me my opinion, asks me to gather info on my desires, but ultimately makes the deciions (and if I've done my research right, I bet I "win" more often than he does!! - but then again, he is a true and spiritual man of God, and there aren't alot of those (if he wasn't, I probably couldn't be on the bandwagon for wifely submission either)
I haven't personally had a lot of luck with submission, though I am fortunate to be married to a genuinely loving Christian man who has supported myself and our children, and supported me in my desire to return to work as the kids got older.
But he has a stubborn streak. Despite my adamant refusal to agree to letting the kids have the internet in their rooms (I have read the expert advice on this issue!), he supplied it anyway. I was furious, naturally, but felt that I should do the submissive wife thing.
Now, the submission camp would argue that the results justify their position, but I'm still not convinced. Eventually, we discovered that our son had stolen our credit card details and was using his bedroom internet connection to run up a $700 bill on online gaming. It took every ounce of my willpower not to say "I told you so" (though I might have hinted it!), and his father finally saw the wisdom in my argument and removed the internet connection from his room.
Wifely submission MIGHT have won the day, but I would have preferred that my husband (bless him!) had had enough respect for my opinion to have listened in the first place.
I really believe that the doctrine being touted by QF is just misogynism by another name, and that the church needs to start teaching a more balanced version of the submission doctrine before someone gets seriously hurt.
Once I had quite the crush on fundamentalism, but (through sheer blind luck) married a man with a heart of gold. When we were first married, I tried submitting to his "authority" when we couldn't come to agreement otherwise. It enraged him so much, he would huff and complain, and then do exactly what I had wanted before lowering my eyes in genuine meekness. Noticing this pattern, I began to realize that "graciously submitting" was horribly unfair, to him! Now it's nothing but a joke between us. (But even so, I think obedience would still work if I ever got mad enough to use it!)
I have never witnessed it improve a relationship. I must admit, I know some seemingly healthy complementarian couples but the wife tends to be very easygoing and the husband tends to be of a kind and gentle spirit.
Personally, it nearly ruined our marriage and made me suicidal.
Dh and my ralationship improved as we embraced an egalitarian mindset and improved that much more when I started school and took on an identity beyone that of a wife and mother. The rest of the family had to start pulling their own collective weight including DH and he has risen to the occasion.
Hahahaha! So does that description "bitter women who are just resentful in general" include you, Darlene? Tina? Crystal? Jeanette?
Insulting the character of those who disagree with you is no way to advance your point.
Everyone has a free will. Loving someone does NOT guarantee they will love you back. Serving someone does NOT guarantee they will serve you back. And are you also saying that if you submit to someone they will in turn submit to you? (You used the terms love serve submit as being what you sow that you will get in return.)
You really misunderstand the way life works, my dear. I pity you, because reality is going to whomp you upside the heard hard one day, and you will have to admit that you had a very shallow understanding of your Biblical principle of sowing and reaping, which sounds a lot like karma and the good old bar advice "what goes around comes around."
Of course this is how it works. You love serve and submit your heart to ANYONE and they will indeed return the kindness with love nad service of their own. You cant sow love and reap hate. It works.It is the law of the harvest. These sites are mostly frequented by bitter women who are just resentful in general.
I want to second the opinions that wifely submission doesn't necessarily make a man better or worse. It CAN very easily hurt, and in my opinion, it most often does hurt, but it isn't an if-then equation.
Sadly I think that the personalities of men and women that drive them to live that lifestyle has more to do with the abusive cycle that ensues than the actual idea of 'submission' and patriarchy. However, if you're tending towards abusive relationships, acting out the ideals of submission certainly isn't going to help things any.
For a woman to expect a man to take care of her is a dangerous way to live. Not only is she putting herself at risk, but also her children. There is nothing good about one human being totally dependent on another. Living one's life that way inhibits growth and self esteem and can and often does lead to depression and worthlessness. In my personal opinion, it is a way to avoid responsibility for one's self. When you can put someone else in charge of your life, whether it be God or a spouse, then one doesn't have to make the hard choices or gain the strength it sometimes takes to get through life.
We each have the personal responsibility to grow and develop into the best person we can be..and that is something we must do for ourselves, no one else can do it for us.
It is not the submission that makes or breaks it. A bad guy will be worse. Submission is NOT being a doormat. At our home he is the leader but it is like he is steering the car but we are both navigating. Only one can steer but he's not stupid enough to think he knows the way to a place he's never been without any help. We work together. So the idea of doormat submission is horrid in my opinion but the idea of supporting, honoring submission with him respecting and honoring you in return is a whole different thing.
My husband has become a better man, but not because of my submission alone. He recognizes things in himself that are flawed and works on them, and he has the utmost respect for my opinion, and requests my input in all that we do.He is an amazing man of God. My submition allows him to lead our family, and I can't wait to see where we go next! We have four children, and do not plan to have more. God has truely blessed me in giving me this man for my husband.
All I can tell you as a single guy is the thought of the Widdle Christian Wifey ("What is Thy will, Milord Husband? How may I better Submit?") both attracts and repels me.
Attracts because after all the times I've been burned by women, she'd be "safe" and I know she wouldn't dare ditch or dump me like the others.
Repels because you can't have any respect for a doormat like that and I KNOW in the absence of such respect I'd start trying to throw my weight around -- Hard. Then harder because in the absence of respect I'd start thinking about payback for what other women have done to me, and things would just deteriorate from there.
Yes, the attraction of "safety" and finally being able to marry would be there, but so would the danger of me going out of control in the absence of any respect. The archetype of female which has always attracted me is the "Cuddly Amazon" -- soft and nurturing, but with a core of tungsten steel and strength of personality. Widdle Christian Wifey (TM) has no core. All nurturing, no strength. And I can't take on all the strength for two without breaking myself.
I am absolutely sorry that these women had bad experiences with submission. I personally did as well with my first husband. However, with my second husband who died, and my new husband who took me and 7 children on (We now have 9) it was totally opposite. Submission was a wonderful gift. A blessings from God. If a man is a true man of God it is a beautiful freeing place to be. It is an honor to serve a man who serves back as Christ served/loved the Church. When my husband who died was gone, I realized even more what a blessing I had in having a man who did step up and be the man of God he was called to be. I missed that umbrella of protection I had in having a man who took his calling seriously. I wasn't meant to be the head of the household, but had to step up and do so. It was the most difficult thing I ever had to do after experiencing such a wonderful, blessed life as the wife I was called to be. I hated not having that gift, that blessing. I am so blessed again to have someone who responds with the heart God would have a true man of God respond with again. It was a lonely, ugly place to not have that.
My husband who passed away wasn't always such a good man of God. He was more of a heathen than I knew when we married. There was much in his life that was disturbing and heartbreaking. Addictions I wasn't aware of, sexual issues that broke my heart, control issues. As I became more of a submissive wife, gently reminding him in private about things that bothered me...using the word, the closer he came to the Lord. I watched as he got into the word, so he would know more than me. I observed the change in him from a selfish, self centered man into a giving family centered man whom I could trust. He still would pick on silly things, like which direction the silver wear was in the drawer, or if his shirts were a certain direction on the hanger, but I understood that these were little things I could let go of. In my submission I let him be all that God wanted him to be. I saw God's promises about winning his heart to God manifest in his life. The day before he died he thanked me for being the woman of God I was, for loving him as he had never been loved, for allowing him to be in headship over our home. It was if he knew our time together was coming to an end. He had actually been telling me similar things for months before the accident happened. I know I had won his heart, not only to God, but to me. He loved me as I know a man is supposed to love a woman. I was a woman blessed beyond measure to have had the opportunity to help him be the best man he could be. I lost the other half of me the day he died. I absolutely believe it when the word says we will become one. It was if my soul, my very being had been ripped in half and there was a huge open sore there.
By the Grace of God, I am now married again. I am once again trying to lift my husband up, to help him grow in the Lord by giving him the honor the Lord specifically asks me too. Again, I am blessed beyond measure.
Once again, my family grows. My womb is Gods, my being my husbands. We are becoming more ONE every day. I love my calling. I love being a keeper at home. I adore the idea of more babies, even though I am now a grandmother. I love the idea of as many years as the Lord will give me serving my precious husband. It pleases my spirit to please my Love/Lord. The man that God put in my life as my Lord. I love that word for him.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Giving your spouse all or most of the power in the relationship WILL eventually make that person--whether male or female, straight or gay-- abusive. This situation can be compounded when the husband has all the power because men biologically already have so much of what is, in some situations, an advantage: they typically are physically stronger than women and do not give birth to kids. Women may feel tied to their man because they are pregnant and unable to work.
What makes good relationships work: cooperation, trust, compromise, and mutual respect. NOT kowtowing and submission.
A fourth option would have been nice. I've never seen it, and I don't believe it's possible for wifely submission to improve the husband, but I think it is possible for it not to destroy the relationship. My mom was all about wifely submission when I was young - little surprise, raised as she was with abuse and domination in everything. But my dad wouldn't have it. He let her know he needed her support, and her opinions, whether he agreed with them or not. What's a good submissive wife to do, when her husband wants her to speak her mind?!
My mom still defers to dad's opinion a lot, will second-guess herself, and constantly apologizes when things aren't perfect - to the point that it actually frustrates dad, because he's not expecting perfect. But she does make decisions, and do her own things, and enjoy herself without worrying if she's allowed to. My dad's a rare person, and he helped heal a lot of my mom's wounds from her childhood. I wish there were more people like him, and I hope I'm half as good as he is.
Yep, I'm with Wubby. Although it wasn't anywhere near 24 years, submission was just something he took advantage of. The very idea of the question is an oxymoron. If his wife submitting to him affects his behaviour, he can't possibly be getting to be a "better person." The only way he could become a better person in such a situation is to help his wife get some self-esteem. Thank you, Vyckie, it's wonderful to see other ex-submissives. It really helps me stay strong in the face of all the adversity.
I was married for 24 years, and always took a submissive behavior, toward my ex, and he never became any better. Although he did become worse!