Personally, I love grey squirrels. Particularly when cooked in a spicy cajun style or even better in an Indian tandoori tikka fashion.
Mmm! Lovely tucker...
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
A Small Manic Gnu: I'll answer both your posts here.
1. I agree with you. We all kill wilklife of some sort or another going about our daily lives. But there's a world of a difference between that and deliberately killing wildlife.
Do you believe we should kill all wildlife because we kill some as you have suggested?
2. I think I answered the question that was put to me. However, for clarity, I do not believe the mink farms should have been broken into and the animals released. That was a criminal act. As far as their impact on nature is concerned I do not think they should be persecuted for their existence. There are other mammals like stoat weasle and marten that kill in a similar manner. And it's not as though they have wiped out small birds and mammals in America.
A Small Manic Gnu - 2 years ago
That's not really answering the question as such. Do you believe that the release of mink into the environment by bunny-huggers was a sensible thing to do, given the negative impact that they've had on the wildlife of our river corridors?
A Small Manic Gnu - 2 years ago
Think of all the splattered insects on your car windscreen every spring and summer. That's depriving baby birds of food. Everything we do has some sort of impact - that's just life, and you need to get over it.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
A Small Manic Gnu: I don't condone the breaking into property for any reason as it's not conducive with gaining public support for any cause whatsoever.
And I don't smoke "wacky backy" :-)
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
AJ: You're confusing the man-made category os "species" with an individual animal. When a grey squirrel is bludgeoned to death you're not attacking a "species"; you're attacking an animal that was born and bred in this country and as native - in the true sense of the word - as you and me. I assume you were born here.
I don't know much about plants but it seems you don't know much about them either.
"According to the information provided by the International Research and Training Center on Sea Buckthorn (ICRTS), its natural distribution area includes China, Mongolia, India, Nepal, Pakistan, Russia, Ukraine, Great Britain, France, Denmark, Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Finland, Sweden and Norway."
Conservationists are very keen to spend taxpayers' money on pet eradication scemes (scams?) but not much of their own.
Ironically, you don't mind killing fish but object to mink killing birds. Try to be consistent.
A Small Manic Gnu - 2 years ago
The release of mink by so-called 'animal-lovers' shows just how little those bunny-huggers actually know about wildlife, and indeed how little they REALLY care about animals. No doubt Angus will defend those who deliberately released mink into the environment, and find some lame means of convincing us all that it was a good idea that has been of great benefit to our wildlife. Maybe it's time that they smoked less of the wacky backy and get a grip of reality.
AJ - 2 years ago
Why would anyone wish to protect an alien species? There are flora and fauna alien to this country that thrive, (because they have no natural predators) to the detriment of the natural species of this country.
Only a fool would think that we could completely eradicate these species, but they have to be controlled. To allow the natural species to gain at least a level playing field. What a sad day it would be if all the Marram grasses of the sand dunes were replaced by the Sea Buckthorn, or if the Japanese Knotweed completely took over every piece of non cultivated land.
Intruders into this island of ours have cost us dear, not only in monetary worth but also in loss of indigenous species. If it is possible to halt their spread then it should be done.
I fished one river in West Wales and it was a pleasure to walk the river in spring, you would see, Dippers, Wagtails, Moorhens Wild Ducks with young in tow. Then the Mink arrive that river is now virtually bird less thanks to the mink.
Alien species have no place in this country and every effort should be made to eradicate them.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
M Prior:
You obviously don't know much about culling squirrels if you think you hold them in your hand and hit them over the head. Also spring traps can catch non-target species and shooting into the trees with a shotgun probably causes as much damage as the squirrel would ever do.
And the demise of the red is not "solely" down to grey squirrels.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
Matt the rat:
I don't think it was your computer that went "nuts" :-)
I we really lived in a managed environment - do remember the environment consists of urban areas as well - we wouldn't have the problems we do. It's not sqiuirrels that are out of control.
Are you saying that reds are not being exploited for tourism?
M Prior - 2 years ago
I am not sure where exactly you get your information from Angus,but,I suspect it is just a way of making your point all the more emotive,but,talking as someone that has culled a very high number of Grey Squirrels I would dearly love to see someone try to hold one and club it over the head.They wouldn't have much of their hand left,the fact is that if they are 'Live Trapped' then they would be shot at point blank range with an air rifle or similar,but,most are caught in traps that kill instantly,or are shot in the woods etc. that they live in,so,as far as culling can be it is as humane as possible.We all know that the culling of any animal is going to raise emotions,but,in this case the evidence is irrefutable,when I was a lad there were reds around where I lived,and now you couldn't find one for hundreds of miles,and,that is solely down to the 'Grey Squirrel'......sorry to ridicule your very emotional drivel,but,you shouldn't talk about something you know little about.
All of the above is FACT without any emotion,and,from an animal lover with a true love of British wildlife..........re'M'ington
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
Or it could be that my computer went nuts and posted the post a number of times!
It must be nice living in your world Angus; where all the lovely little h'animals get to share your home.
As for loosing the argument, I don't think we (by we, I mean the rest of the sane population) are. Your continued comments about the exploitation of reds in the name of tourism are doing you no favours at all.
We live in a managed environment. Get over it.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
Matt the rat:
I don't know what you're trying to achieve by posting the same message repeatedly. Anyone could do that.
It just make it look as though you've lost the argument and can't think of anything further to say.
It's all rather silly.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
Matt the rat:
You've repeated yourself by posting the same message three times.
Grey squirrels obviously don't kill parrots :-)
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
Matt the rat: Sure they're different species - which after all is only part of a manufactured classification system - but more importantly they're "individual" animals.
Red squirrels are currently being exploited for money. In a recent Radio 4 “Living World” broadcast, a Cumbria Wildlife Trust officer failed to find a single red squirrel for the presenter in Thirlmere woodland where there is reputed to be a population of “at least 200”. If they can’t find one for the BBC, how do they know there are 200? This is where a Red Squirrel Trail tour, with no guarantee of seeing a red squirrel, costs a member of the public “twenty quid”. That's not much short of spivish behaviour.
Evidential claims made by conservationists are frequently littered with slippery qualifiers that include words like “presumed to be”, “thought to be”, “possibly”, “perhaps”, “may be”, etc. and used as escape routes from being held to account. The careful reader is well advised to look out for these qualifiers before coming to any conclusion as to the merit of any particular claim.
The hate campaign against mink is also unjustified. What about weasles, stoats and martens etc ? They kill with equal ferocity. And there's plenty of small mammals in America despite the mink. People complain about too many rabbits yet if there were more foxes and mink there would be fewer rabbits.
I don't know much about John Bryant except that he wrote a good book about dealing with urban wildlife.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
Mat the rat: I don't think grey squirrels are "humans with fluffy tails" any more than red squirrels. They're wildlife.
What I do think is that all squirrels are equal as individuals, irrespective of their colour or economic value to us in terms of attracting tourism. Indeed Northumberland gives the game away by adopting a red squirrel as their tourist emblem.
The idea that greys should be killed to make it better for reds is not far removed from the prejudice perpetrated against humans by countless regimes throughout the ages where differences in populations are not tolerated. We should be able to rise above that kind of thinking.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
You can't talk sense to people who think that Grey Squirrels are just humans with fluffy tails.
They are vermin that should be killed at any opportunity, and preferably eaten.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
Martin:
1. Two I am aware of is £150,000 in 2008 and another £40,000 in 2009. There were probably more in other areas. Merseyside for instance.
2. So where does the money come from to fund the RSST and the grants it gives out? Have a look at Google.
3. Red squirrels were almost wiped out in Merseyside a number of years after the culling had started.
4. And you're not protecting reds if you believe their demise is down to grey squirrels and their population is increasing because of culling. The whole thing is a silly waste of money.
5. Ah, when you start to lose the argument you attack the messenger:-) That the usual format. Nothing original.
Martin - 2 years ago
In Scotland the taxpayer may be funding some work, but it's minimal. In England, most of the funding is from Heritage Lottery, which is for research activities, not grey control; and from private funds such as RSST. I'd imagine that the taxpayer spends far more money on policing the activities of animal rights than it does on squirrel conservation.
As for red populations falling by 90% in Merseyside, SQPV was the cause of much of the drop. Without grey control, that population would probably have been totally wiped out by now - which in my view justifies the work being done to protect these creatures.
You don't like conservation bodies, do you Angus?! Perhaps it's down to your run in with the Woodland Trust a few years ago?
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
Martin:
1. I don't know what you mean about the poll being "hijacked" by Professor Acorn but it's well known that I run the website for grey squirrels. I am entitled to vote in an open poll, which I have done, and correct to propaganda that is being waged against the greys in the messages I have posted. It is interesting that a significant number of "Yes" votes seem to be from 1am this morning to the present which seems to suggest that the vote is being "hijacked" by the "Yes" camp. Up until then the votes had been rising smoothly on both sides.
2. If anyone has any doubt about taxpayers money being wasted on grey squirrel culling just google " red squirrel funding".
3. In Merseyside, a buffer zone has been in place for a number of years
where grey squirrels are killed. However, increased human exploitation
of red squirrels for tourism and the frequent intrusion by
conservationists for monitoring population levels was always likely to
lead to stress and loss of condition of the red squirrel resulting in an
increased susceptibility to disease. The announcement that the red
squirrel population had declined by 90% in the past two years was
hardly surprising. In short, fewer grey squirrels with more conservation and tourist intrusion have resulted in a massive decline in the red squirrel
population – definitely not the predicted outcome.
4. Early in the last century, out of forty-four districts in England where red squirrels had the disease only four districts had grey squirrels present. This suggests that SQPV has been within the red squirrel population for around a century at least and that grey squirrels are victims of a campaign of unfair vilification.
5. In reality, rather than in the arbitrary and profoundly prejudiced world of “conservation”, all squirrels born in this country are as “native” by birth as we are, irrespective of their colour, background or success. To expect tolerance within our own population but condemn these animals to death on the basis of their ancestral background is extremely hypocritical and only one small step removed from racism.
Angus Macmillan - 2 years ago
Mat the rat:
1. All squirrels damage forestry; reds and greys alike.
2. “Humane” and “humane as possible” are words frequently used by conservationists to describe the killing of wildlife. So what exactly do these words mean or are they merely euphemistic references to brutality?
Conservationists are currently engaged in the “humane dispatch” of grey squirrels by clubbing them over the head with a blunt instrument, yet if the same happens to a human it is described as a “brutal murder”.
Putting aside the argument of whether a human life is of more value than that of a squirrel, it is logical to say that if the method of dispatch is exactly the same there is little or no excuse for describing it differently.
3. Where greys are "removed" they come back within weeks so the whole exercise is pointless. There's more than ever now reported in Northumberland
4. The grey is no more "fluffy" than the red.
Martin - 2 years ago
Ask the general population about their views on red squirrel conservation and the results are the complete opposite of those that we see from this poll. I suspected that it may have been hijacked by a certain 'Prof Acorn' and lo and behold, this has proven to be the case. What a surprise to once again see Angus weighing in with his emotive bilge. Just to set the record straight, the work being done by volunteer groups is almost entirely funded by donations from individuals - it's NOT taxpayer funded. Also, as Angus well knows, those of us who are part of organised groups do NOT 'club squirrels to death'. They are killed quickly and cleanly with a gun. Contrary to what you may think, we use the most humane methods available - we don't do this for fun. Where greys are removed, reds DO come back, so it is a task that is well worth doing and it will continue to be done, despite Angus' best efforts. Unlike him, I'd like future generations to be able to see reds in their natural habitat, rather than simply as exhibits in a glass case in museums.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
What a good idea Angus!
Lets finish off the reds for good!
You cannot base an argument about the protection of our valuable native red squirrels on the fact that a few people think that greys are 'friendly and amusing'. They are verminous predators that damage forestry and kill songbirds. Most significantly, they are killing our harmless red squirrels.
As for 'clubbing' to death; you seem to be using very emotive language for what is a quick and painless death.
I would urge anyone with any grey vermin on their land to co-operate and help save our indigenous wildlife before it's too late, and ignore the bunny hugging vegans (they must be vegans or hypocrites) who insist that vermin should be spared because it's fluffy.
The state sponsored campaign of unfair vilification and cruelty against grey
squirrels has now reached the point where thousands of these well-loved,
friendly and amusing animals are being trapped and clubbed to death. This
will include the indiscriminate killing of lactating females, which will mean their
kittens will starve to death in their dreys – and it is being called “humane”.
So what can members of the public, who disagree with this approach, do to
counter this bloodshed without the money machine of government behind
them?
Landowners and gardeners can refuse access to trappers and feed grey
squirrels where traps are known to be in the vicinity. The latter is known to
work in a location where for the past two years grey squirrels have been
trapped without any effect on their population level, as they will stay close to
where they are fed. It could even increase their fecundity. Trap entrances can
also be effectively blocked by something like heavy stones to render them
useless but on no account should they be damaged as this could result in a
criminal prosecution.
Matt the rat - 2 years ago
The reason that the reds are dying out is because they get squirrel pox off the greys. The greys do not die from the disease, but carry it and spread it to the native reds.
If more people supported the active management of wildlife instead of thinking of wildlife as fluffy people, then this country would not be in such a mess.
We live in a managed environment, no matter how distasteful some over emotional folks think that is.
Colin Denchfie;d - 2 years ago
Once grey squirrels were introduced to this country the red squirrel started to go into decline. At the same time the grey numbers proliferated. This has been happening steadily eversince. Now I'm just a humble bus driver but those facts together suggest to me, that maybe the greys are merely more successful at gathering food and possibly more adept at avoiding predation...but who am I to talk...
Personally, I love grey squirrels. Particularly when cooked in a spicy cajun style or even better in an Indian tandoori tikka fashion.
Mmm! Lovely tucker...
A Small Manic Gnu: I'll answer both your posts here.
1. I agree with you. We all kill wilklife of some sort or another going about our daily lives. But there's a world of a difference between that and deliberately killing wildlife.
Do you believe we should kill all wildlife because we kill some as you have suggested?
2. I think I answered the question that was put to me. However, for clarity, I do not believe the mink farms should have been broken into and the animals released. That was a criminal act. As far as their impact on nature is concerned I do not think they should be persecuted for their existence. There are other mammals like stoat weasle and marten that kill in a similar manner. And it's not as though they have wiped out small birds and mammals in America.
That's not really answering the question as such. Do you believe that the release of mink into the environment by bunny-huggers was a sensible thing to do, given the negative impact that they've had on the wildlife of our river corridors?
Think of all the splattered insects on your car windscreen every spring and summer. That's depriving baby birds of food. Everything we do has some sort of impact - that's just life, and you need to get over it.
A Small Manic Gnu: I don't condone the breaking into property for any reason as it's not conducive with gaining public support for any cause whatsoever.
And I don't smoke "wacky backy" :-)
AJ: You're confusing the man-made category os "species" with an individual animal. When a grey squirrel is bludgeoned to death you're not attacking a "species"; you're attacking an animal that was born and bred in this country and as native - in the true sense of the word - as you and me. I assume you were born here.
I don't know much about plants but it seems you don't know much about them either.
"According to the information provided by the International Research and Training Center on Sea Buckthorn (ICRTS), its natural distribution area includes China, Mongolia, India, Nepal, Pakistan, Russia, Ukraine, Great Britain, France, Denmark, Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Finland, Sweden and Norway."
Conservationists are very keen to spend taxpayers' money on pet eradication scemes (scams?) but not much of their own.
Ironically, you don't mind killing fish but object to mink killing birds. Try to be consistent.
The release of mink by so-called 'animal-lovers' shows just how little those bunny-huggers actually know about wildlife, and indeed how little they REALLY care about animals. No doubt Angus will defend those who deliberately released mink into the environment, and find some lame means of convincing us all that it was a good idea that has been of great benefit to our wildlife. Maybe it's time that they smoked less of the wacky backy and get a grip of reality.
Why would anyone wish to protect an alien species? There are flora and fauna alien to this country that thrive, (because they have no natural predators) to the detriment of the natural species of this country.
Only a fool would think that we could completely eradicate these species, but they have to be controlled. To allow the natural species to gain at least a level playing field. What a sad day it would be if all the Marram grasses of the sand dunes were replaced by the Sea Buckthorn, or if the Japanese Knotweed completely took over every piece of non cultivated land.
Intruders into this island of ours have cost us dear, not only in monetary worth but also in loss of indigenous species. If it is possible to halt their spread then it should be done.
I fished one river in West Wales and it was a pleasure to walk the river in spring, you would see, Dippers, Wagtails, Moorhens Wild Ducks with young in tow. Then the Mink arrive that river is now virtually bird less thanks to the mink.
Alien species have no place in this country and every effort should be made to eradicate them.
M Prior:
You obviously don't know much about culling squirrels if you think you hold them in your hand and hit them over the head. Also spring traps can catch non-target species and shooting into the trees with a shotgun probably causes as much damage as the squirrel would ever do.
And the demise of the red is not "solely" down to grey squirrels.
Matt the rat:
I don't think it was your computer that went "nuts" :-)
I we really lived in a managed environment - do remember the environment consists of urban areas as well - we wouldn't have the problems we do. It's not sqiuirrels that are out of control.
Are you saying that reds are not being exploited for tourism?
I am not sure where exactly you get your information from Angus,but,I suspect it is just a way of making your point all the more emotive,but,talking as someone that has culled a very high number of Grey Squirrels I would dearly love to see someone try to hold one and club it over the head.They wouldn't have much of their hand left,the fact is that if they are 'Live Trapped' then they would be shot at point blank range with an air rifle or similar,but,most are caught in traps that kill instantly,or are shot in the woods etc. that they live in,so,as far as culling can be it is as humane as possible.We all know that the culling of any animal is going to raise emotions,but,in this case the evidence is irrefutable,when I was a lad there were reds around where I lived,and now you couldn't find one for hundreds of miles,and,that is solely down to the 'Grey Squirrel'......sorry to ridicule your very emotional drivel,but,you shouldn't talk about something you know little about.
All of the above is FACT without any emotion,and,from an animal lover with a true love of British wildlife..........re'M'ington
Or it could be that my computer went nuts and posted the post a number of times!
It must be nice living in your world Angus; where all the lovely little h'animals get to share your home.
As for loosing the argument, I don't think we (by we, I mean the rest of the sane population) are. Your continued comments about the exploitation of reds in the name of tourism are doing you no favours at all.
We live in a managed environment. Get over it.
Matt the rat:
I don't know what you're trying to achieve by posting the same message repeatedly. Anyone could do that.
It just make it look as though you've lost the argument and can't think of anything further to say.
It's all rather silly.
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Matt the rat:
You've repeated yourself by posting the same message three times.
Grey squirrels obviously don't kill parrots :-)
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Matt the rat: Sure they're different species - which after all is only part of a manufactured classification system - but more importantly they're "individual" animals.
Red squirrels are currently being exploited for money. In a recent Radio 4 “Living World” broadcast, a Cumbria Wildlife Trust officer failed to find a single red squirrel for the presenter in Thirlmere woodland where there is reputed to be a population of “at least 200”. If they can’t find one for the BBC, how do they know there are 200? This is where a Red Squirrel Trail tour, with no guarantee of seeing a red squirrel, costs a member of the public “twenty quid”. That's not much short of spivish behaviour.
Evidential claims made by conservationists are frequently littered with slippery qualifiers that include words like “presumed to be”, “thought to be”, “possibly”, “perhaps”, “may be”, etc. and used as escape routes from being held to account. The careful reader is well advised to look out for these qualifiers before coming to any conclusion as to the merit of any particular claim.
The hate campaign against mink is also unjustified. What about weasles, stoats and martens etc ? They kill with equal ferocity. And there's plenty of small mammals in America despite the mink. People complain about too many rabbits yet if there were more foxes and mink there would be fewer rabbits.
I don't know much about John Bryant except that he wrote a good book about dealing with urban wildlife.
They are not just a different colour, but completely different species.
So you think that red squirrels will be exploited if they are allowed to survive?
What do you think of the North American Mink? I expect that our wildlife just fails to understand their need to kill everything in their wake..........
It's no good quoting John Bryant at me. He's a rabid animal rights activist, who, if my memory serves me correctly, thinks that all pet ownership is exploitation.
Mat the rat: I don't think grey squirrels are "humans with fluffy tails" any more than red squirrels. They're wildlife.
What I do think is that all squirrels are equal as individuals, irrespective of their colour or economic value to us in terms of attracting tourism. Indeed Northumberland gives the game away by adopting a red squirrel as their tourist emblem.
The idea that greys should be killed to make it better for reds is not far removed from the prejudice perpetrated against humans by countless regimes throughout the ages where differences in populations are not tolerated. We should be able to rise above that kind of thinking.
You can't talk sense to people who think that Grey Squirrels are just humans with fluffy tails.
They are vermin that should be killed at any opportunity, and preferably eaten.
Martin:
1. Two I am aware of is £150,000 in 2008 and another £40,000 in 2009. There were probably more in other areas. Merseyside for instance.
2. So where does the money come from to fund the RSST and the grants it gives out? Have a look at Google.
3. Red squirrels were almost wiped out in Merseyside a number of years after the culling had started.
4. And you're not protecting reds if you believe their demise is down to grey squirrels and their population is increasing because of culling. The whole thing is a silly waste of money.
5. Ah, when you start to lose the argument you attack the messenger:-) That the usual format. Nothing original.
In Scotland the taxpayer may be funding some work, but it's minimal. In England, most of the funding is from Heritage Lottery, which is for research activities, not grey control; and from private funds such as RSST. I'd imagine that the taxpayer spends far more money on policing the activities of animal rights than it does on squirrel conservation.
As for red populations falling by 90% in Merseyside, SQPV was the cause of much of the drop. Without grey control, that population would probably have been totally wiped out by now - which in my view justifies the work being done to protect these creatures.
You don't like conservation bodies, do you Angus?! Perhaps it's down to your run in with the Woodland Trust a few years ago?
Martin:
1. I don't know what you mean about the poll being "hijacked" by Professor Acorn but it's well known that I run the website for grey squirrels. I am entitled to vote in an open poll, which I have done, and correct to propaganda that is being waged against the greys in the messages I have posted. It is interesting that a significant number of "Yes" votes seem to be from 1am this morning to the present which seems to suggest that the vote is being "hijacked" by the "Yes" camp. Up until then the votes had been rising smoothly on both sides.
2. If anyone has any doubt about taxpayers money being wasted on grey squirrel culling just google " red squirrel funding".
3. In Merseyside, a buffer zone has been in place for a number of years
where grey squirrels are killed. However, increased human exploitation
of red squirrels for tourism and the frequent intrusion by
conservationists for monitoring population levels was always likely to
lead to stress and loss of condition of the red squirrel resulting in an
increased susceptibility to disease. The announcement that the red
squirrel population had declined by 90% in the past two years was
hardly surprising. In short, fewer grey squirrels with more conservation and tourist intrusion have resulted in a massive decline in the red squirrel
population – definitely not the predicted outcome.
4. Early in the last century, out of forty-four districts in England where red squirrels had the disease only four districts had grey squirrels present. This suggests that SQPV has been within the red squirrel population for around a century at least and that grey squirrels are victims of a campaign of unfair vilification.
5. In reality, rather than in the arbitrary and profoundly prejudiced world of “conservation”, all squirrels born in this country are as “native” by birth as we are, irrespective of their colour, background or success. To expect tolerance within our own population but condemn these animals to death on the basis of their ancestral background is extremely hypocritical and only one small step removed from racism.
Mat the rat:
1. All squirrels damage forestry; reds and greys alike.
2. “Humane” and “humane as possible” are words frequently used by conservationists to describe the killing of wildlife. So what exactly do these words mean or are they merely euphemistic references to brutality?
Conservationists are currently engaged in the “humane dispatch” of grey squirrels by clubbing them over the head with a blunt instrument, yet if the same happens to a human it is described as a “brutal murder”.
Putting aside the argument of whether a human life is of more value than that of a squirrel, it is logical to say that if the method of dispatch is exactly the same there is little or no excuse for describing it differently.
3. Where greys are "removed" they come back within weeks so the whole exercise is pointless. There's more than ever now reported in Northumberland
4. The grey is no more "fluffy" than the red.
Ask the general population about their views on red squirrel conservation and the results are the complete opposite of those that we see from this poll. I suspected that it may have been hijacked by a certain 'Prof Acorn' and lo and behold, this has proven to be the case. What a surprise to once again see Angus weighing in with his emotive bilge. Just to set the record straight, the work being done by volunteer groups is almost entirely funded by donations from individuals - it's NOT taxpayer funded. Also, as Angus well knows, those of us who are part of organised groups do NOT 'club squirrels to death'. They are killed quickly and cleanly with a gun. Contrary to what you may think, we use the most humane methods available - we don't do this for fun. Where greys are removed, reds DO come back, so it is a task that is well worth doing and it will continue to be done, despite Angus' best efforts. Unlike him, I'd like future generations to be able to see reds in their natural habitat, rather than simply as exhibits in a glass case in museums.
What a good idea Angus!
Lets finish off the reds for good!
You cannot base an argument about the protection of our valuable native red squirrels on the fact that a few people think that greys are 'friendly and amusing'. They are verminous predators that damage forestry and kill songbirds. Most significantly, they are killing our harmless red squirrels.
As for 'clubbing' to death; you seem to be using very emotive language for what is a quick and painless death.
I would urge anyone with any grey vermin on their land to co-operate and help save our indigenous wildlife before it's too late, and ignore the bunny hugging vegans (they must be vegans or hypocrites) who insist that vermin should be spared because it's fluffy.
The state sponsored campaign of unfair vilification and cruelty against grey
squirrels has now reached the point where thousands of these well-loved,
friendly and amusing animals are being trapped and clubbed to death. This
will include the indiscriminate killing of lactating females, which will mean their
kittens will starve to death in their dreys – and it is being called “humane”.
So what can members of the public, who disagree with this approach, do to
counter this bloodshed without the money machine of government behind
them?
Landowners and gardeners can refuse access to trappers and feed grey
squirrels where traps are known to be in the vicinity. The latter is known to
work in a location where for the past two years grey squirrels have been
trapped without any effect on their population level, as they will stay close to
where they are fed. It could even increase their fecundity. Trap entrances can
also be effectively blocked by something like heavy stones to render them
useless but on no account should they be damaged as this could result in a
criminal prosecution.
The reason that the reds are dying out is because they get squirrel pox off the greys. The greys do not die from the disease, but carry it and spread it to the native reds.
If more people supported the active management of wildlife instead of thinking of wildlife as fluffy people, then this country would not be in such a mess.
We live in a managed environment, no matter how distasteful some over emotional folks think that is.
Once grey squirrels were introduced to this country the red squirrel started to go into decline. At the same time the grey numbers proliferated. This has been happening steadily eversince. Now I'm just a humble bus driver but those facts together suggest to me, that maybe the greys are merely more successful at gathering food and possibly more adept at avoiding predation...but who am I to talk...