Do physicians make too much money?

37 Comments

  • James - 9 years ago

    @PhD in public service. PhD tuition is generally covered while earning the degree. Not so for medical school. The level of responsibility demanded by each career is also different. Big difference.

  • PhD in public service - 9 years ago

    Cry me a river. I spent at least as many hours on my PhD training and post docs. Working in public health and for the VA netted $50k and $75k per year, respectively. Physicians working in these venues earn more than PhD's, but not by much. My neighbor, a private sector orthopedist, makes over $500k. Reimbursement is not based on the time you put in but who you choose to serve. My neighbor is no more skilled or experienced than many of my colleagues in public health, community health and the VA. Why do I do it? Paying it forward.

  • Johnny - 9 years ago

    Wow, I had no idea that doctors made $34.46 * 15,360 = $529,305 while they were in medical school! Must be a great deal.

  • Dr. Numbers - 10 years ago

    This is a joke right? This is no way to calculate projections. You have to have upper and lower bounds and corresponding ranges in the final projections that reflect your assumptions. It's currently a "how much a physician thinks (or wants to think) other professions work and get paid as supported by personal experience and selective evidence."

    Given that the numbers are just smoke and mirrors, I have a very simple question for the author. How many teachers do you know that can afford the houses, cars, and general lifestyles physicians lead?

    All that said, I don't think most physicians are overpaid for their education/effort. Some are definitely overpaid, and some specialties are out of control as far as reimbursements for specific procedures are concerned. But on the whole, it's pretty fair compensation. I think it would be best to increase the physician workforce, drive down the hours worked by physicians, and pay them more per hour (but less on the whole). You'd have to ensure patient care remains where it is or improves, but it's doable, and people would be less overworked and burnout would decrease.

  • paul kruyer - 10 years ago

    it is not the physicians, it is the CFO's and CEO's of hospitals and insurance companies I have a problem with. $1,500,000.00 to $5,000,000.00 a year as a CFO of a hospital... THAT is one overpaid position

  • AM - 10 years ago

    If you people think anyone would be a physician to make 100k after 13 years of schooling and thousands in debt while getting sued by every ungrateful patient, you're living in a dream world. We live in a capitalistic country we put in our time, we want to be paid well. We have skills most people do not and that is represented by our salary. If your going to complain maybe focus on all these NBA players, movie stars or politicians. To Anonymous physician salaries will be coming down by the time students in med school actually graduate due to all the new legislature, so no they do not know what they're are getting into and by the time they do they will have to work in order to pay the thousands in debt they have off.

  • John - 10 years ago

    Being a medical school drop out can be more costly. How many people can't finish the medical training because of short of funding? Even if people can come up with the loan, they still can't pay it off!
    I previously thought that medical doctors earn a lot of money, however I just realized from this article that some doctors can be very poor. Just heard that Michael Jackson's doctor early 350k and is still a living poor!
    I now wonder how people survive in this world? How do people get enough money to support family and children?
    How can people afford to live in million dollar homes? Even if doctors supporting children to become future doctors, they will still have to spend a lot of money first, how do people manage to save that amount of money?

  • Anonymous - 10 years ago

    Doctors know what they're signing up for when they apply to medical school. Quit the whining and complaining!! Being a doctor is not always measured by the amount of money you make. Being a doctor gets you respect. If money is what you're whining about, then go to law school so you can rip the poor souls that needs legal advice. If money is not important to you, the feeling of helping people should be satisfaction enough. Part of your school debts are deductible on your tax returns. Honestly, doctors are the most respected in the field of all jobs (except for psychiatrist-then they're paid like lawyers while being a drug dealer). I clean houses and I have a master's degree. I don't whine and complain. it's a job and it pays the bills!!

  • tj - 11 years ago

    This piece is a joke that manipulates numbers and facts to convince the reader of the writers policy position. I would take most everything in this with grain of salt. Also, there there are a few majorly biased assumptions in there, one of which being- that someone who has 140k after taxes and is married will take 20 years to pay off 300k of debt. That alone makes the whole per hour calculation useless ... at 140k a year after tax, it would be more than possible to pay the debt in 5 years @ 60 k a year and live off 80k a year. certainly doable as 80k is more than roughly 80% of the population makes before taxes.

  • Brian T - 11 years ago

    Also, I meant to mention that the public does not seem to be generally aware that the AMA creates a false shortage of slots in med schools (there are more qualified applicants than seats) in order to create a real shortage of physicians, thereby inflating doctors' incomes.

  • Brian T - 11 years ago

    Most of the handful of doctors that I know do not appreciate what a great business they are in. Doctors are very fortuante to work in a business that combines all these attributes: (1) fee for service; (2) no price transparancey; and (3) third-party payor.

    Try selling services for real money like the rest of us - you would not get paid $100-140 for 5-8 mins of your time. In fact, you would have to answer calls from prospective clients demanding a free consultation.

  • john lee - 11 years ago

    Hi Mike Miller
    To give resident doctors the benefit of the doubt, they do have to work 80 hour work weeks which often still isn't regulated to just this. avg 100 hour work week. though 45000 high, for the sacrifice on sleep and life. 45,000 is still taxed and loans deferred but with 7% interest on a 300,000 dollar loan.
    "Doctor's being the most greedy" careful of the context. don't forget the sacrifices either. most physicians work 60 hours per week on average. if you had a private practice caring for just less than 500 patients at one period of time, leasing an office, staff, paying loans, he/she would have to declare bankruptcy. one can only understand if they themselves been through the life of a cardiothoracic surgeon, family medicine physician, or an ob/gyn.

  • Mike Miller - 11 years ago

    Physicians like to tout the high cost of education. What they don't tell you is that most student loans are repaid on an income basis.

    Does that mean that the physician has no undue hardship from their student loans?

    What the article doesn't mention is that as a resident and fellow this physician is making more than teachers who are working for their job. This means that someone who is receiving their training for their future job is making 45,000 per year.

    How much student loan debt must they repay when they make 45,000?
    Ans: Not that Much

    What they frequently do is compare their job to the amount of money that someone would have made earning 30,000 per year while they were in their ten years of training.

    The cost of living metabolizes most of that thirty thousand.

    Why then is the physician specialist making 200,000 per year?

    Physicians are some of the most greedy people you will ever meet. Just look at what the AMA is doing. They are trying to get congress to maintain the current salary. Physicians need a second home, a BMW and more.

    Do you see the AMA lobbying that resident salaries be made comparable to that of a teacher? No, they are paying residents, who are getting their training for their job more than people who are working as their career.

    Why should a resident make more than thirty thousand per year. They dont have to pay back their student loans. Yet the ACGME, AAMC, and AMA lobby not for a mandated increase in positions, but for pay maintenance of physicians.

    Physicians collaborate and say that they will only train so many residents. They do this to maintain leverage over the government and medicare.

    People who answer no to this survey are mostly greedy physicians

    #kevinmd

  • shortbread654 - 11 years ago

    OB Rez, I think you hit the nail on the head. As the daughter of a cardiologist, I've always greatly admired my mother for her profession, and am stunned by the amount of knowledge she needs to retain. I've seen her sob because one of her patients passed away, and I've seen her bolt down a hall to save a collapsed man (she did save him, by the way, about thirty seconds before he died). And in a week she'll make more of an impact on this planet than I will in my entire career.

    I am always astonished when people say physicians are overpaid and full of hot air. Yes, I've benefited from my mother making a decent salary, but I also didn't get to see her around the house for half my life. I also heard her wake up at 3 am most weekends because she was needed back at the hospital (and have to wake up an hour after she got back to start her workday all over again).

    You are paying doctors to work in an impossibly high stress environment (literally having others' lives in their hands), to live interrupted lives (absolutely NO doctor works 9 to 5), to educate themselves to the absolute highest level, so that 35 years after medical school they can recall the side effects of a gastrointestinal drug they haven't prescribed in decades. If our lives are our most precious possession, why is it so preposterous that the person who handles it, who takes on the responsibility of saving it, is paid well and given some respect for their job?

  • OB Rez - 11 years ago

    Interesting article and comments. As I told a patient of mine recently when she was screaming at me that I had no idea what she goes through during my 13th hour of work that day...'You are right, I don't know what it is like. However, you don't know what I go through either and we all have our burdens to bear."

    Becoming a doctor has been harder than anything I could ever have imagined, physically, mentally, and emotionally. Do I hate it? Sometimes. Do I regret it? Never. I am the first person to hold a new human life on a daily basis...that perfect little human started out as one tiny, microsopic cell and now it's a beautiful baby!

    Many know what it is like to be a parent and responsible for another person's life and well being. Although not quite to this extent, most doctors feel this way about all their patients as well (hundreds to thousands depending on the specialty). We worry about them constantly, want nothing but the best for them, rejoice in their success, mourn if they die, feel guilty when we fail them, I could go on and on.

    Most doctors don't want more pay, they simply want to know that society appreciates all that they sacrifice and all the hard work they do.

    @ silly:
    I take offense to your sarcastic comment about "...if they are so smart, why do they take so long to train." If the human body were a simple cell or if just one organ you may be correct. However, when I see you take an average of 32-36 credits a quarter/semster then we can talk about being stupid. According to your statement you basically believe that medical school could be shrunk down from 4 years into 1-1.5. I dare you to entrust your life or the life of one of your loved ones into the sole hands of a 2nd year medical student and see how that works out for you. I mean really? It can't be that hard to perform surgery? It's basically the same as what a butcher does, oh wait that's right you wanted to stay alive...oops, better luck next time.

  • Doc - 11 years ago

    Maybe because his wife loves the profession? You are such an idiot Jennie. I hope you don't come to a doctor. It is people like you who decry physicians as "being god" but as soon as they make a mistake you sue them because they are not perfect. Wait, I thought they weren't God? Kinda hard to be perfect when you are human. Now that doctor pays out the ass for malpractice. But I guess he should just be happy that he gets the opportunity to treat such treasures like you.

  • Jennie S Dunlap - 11 years ago

    DHM...SO you wife is now in medical school Why?....If if is such an underpaid, shity profession that burdens you with debts that can't be repaid, I am shocked...My son is paying 50k in loans working for 8 an hours and happy to have a job, while he applies in resumes in his field...but never once does he whine, cry , or complain..he has had this job since he was 16 and they kept it for him when he would return for UTK....You sir, have no honor. While young men die on a battlefield, you whine about this was no what you thought it would be...just a 550k house...we both know you could erase those debts by serving your country in some capacity, whether it is rural undeveloped areas who need Dr. desperately or the Military...but everybody here know what you are and what you are in it for...prick\

  • Doc - 11 years ago

    Ok Jennie, if you are such a good person, go to med school and give awaysl your services. I'm 35 years old, and am finally board certified and starting my career. We will see how much your tune changes when you are on the other end. I doubt that would happen though. I bet you expect a completely competent and rested physician when YOU need medical care though. You people make me sick. Why the hell shouldn't I get compensated for the fact that I spent 13 years AFTER high school training for my job? It doesn't really compare to somebody at 7-11 who trained for 2 weeks. I enjoy my job, and I enjoy helping people. But I am getting a little sick of people like you trying to guilt trip me because I want to get paid for my work. I am sure if you worked your ass off at work you wouldn't be very happy if your boss told you that you would be getting a 21% pay cut. You would probably quit. It is clear the people that complain physicians get paid too much are people that have NO idea the restrictive economics in medicine. But I guarantee you expect that your doctor is available 24/7 for your needs. Pathetic.

  • Doc - 11 years ago

    Ok Jennie, if you are such a good person, go to med school and give awaysl your services. I'm 35 years old, and am finally board certified and starting my career. We will see how much your tune changes when you are on the other end. I doubt that would happen though. I bet you expect a completely competent and rested physician when YOU need medical care though. You people make me sick. Why the hell shouldn't I get compensated for the fact that I spent 13 years AFTER high school training for my job? It doesn't really compare to somebody at 7-11 who trained for 2 weeks. I enjoy my job, and I enjoy helping people. But I am getting a little sick of people like you trying to guilt trip me because I want to get paid for my work. I am sure if you worked your ass off at work you wouldn't be very happy if your boss told you that you would be getting a 21% pay cut. You would probably quit. It is clear the people that complain physicians get paid too much are people that have NO idea the restrictive economics in medicine. But I guarantee you expect that your doctor is available 24/7 for your needs. Pathetic.

  • Doc - 11 years ago

    Ok Jennie, if you are such a good person, go to med school and give awaysl your services. I'm 35 years old, and am finally board certified and starting my career. We will see how much your tune changes when you are on the other end. I doubt that would happen though. I bet you expect a completely competent and rested physician when YOU need medical care though. You people make me sick. Why the hell shouldn't I get compensated for the fact that I spent 13 years AFTER high school training for my job? It doesn't really compare to somebody at 7-11 who trained for 2 weeks. I enjoy my job, and I enjoy helping people. But I am getting a little sick of people like you trying to guilt trip me because I want to get paid for my work. I am sure if you worked your ass off at work you wouldn't be very happy if your boss told you that you would be getting a 21% pay cut. You would probably quit. It is clear the people that complain physicians get paid too much are people that have NO idea the restrictive economics in medicine. But I guarantee you expect that your doctor is available 24/7 for your needs. Pathetic.

  • Jennie S Dunlap - 11 years ago

    Oh cry me a frigging river....you chose this profession and now you want to whine cuz you don't have a "million dollar house, just 350.00. You are a selfish prick...there are people living in cardboard boxes that fought for your freedom and came back damaged and mentally ill...My husband and I ha 3 kids and 2 incomes and didn't come near 350k...putting three thru college and quit boo hooing if you have that much debt go to a depressed area maybe in rural Wesr Virginia or the mountains where Dr. are scarce and they will forgive those BIG BAD LOANS...BUT YOU WON'T DO THAT...YOU WANT YOUR BIG HOUSE, PRIVATE PARKING AND TO TREATED LIKE MOST DR. "GOD:...you are sickening when there are kids in Mississippi with empty bellies at night when that go to bed and you want to boo hoo..You sir should NOT NOT NOT be a dr....my a LA Police officer so you can get that anti social aggression out of your system...Hope you don't pass on your values to your kids..Do you know how much a soldier makes to defend you yellow ass...it's not 32.00 an hour....volunteer to work in a war zone but you are too much of a crybaby....you make me sick.

  • Phil - 12 years ago

    By allopathic I mean osteopathic, haha sorry.. It's been awhile.

  • Phil - 12 years ago

    I dropped out of medical school precisely because it was too expensive and was nothing like I had imagined. I attended an allopathic school in Kansas City, KCUMB for a year and went $46k in debt. I expected it to be a competitive endeavor but it wasn't even close. I somehow got accepted without ever getting all my application materials in, letters of recommendation, etc.

    That was in 2007, in 4 years my net worth has gone from -52k to probably +70k, and I've completely paid off the debt making $52k/year. I think it's ridiculous doctors should be complaining making over $100k/year at least.. There is nothing competitive about healthcare, the field keeps expanding. Medicare pays for everyone's residency and no medical student is ever denied a spot.. Just maybe their top choice. If they just got rid of health insurance the sheer number of doctors would drive down healthcare costs. If patients paid doc's directly again doctors would have to compete on prices. Would you rather see Dr. Spaceman that charges an arm and a leg? Or Dr. Linderman that's fair and reasonable.

    So, I don't buy the argument doc's should be paid more to keep the field competitive.. They are already paid way more than anyone else in the US. Obviously it's not competitive on the front-end.. Getting in to school and graduating, that much I know for sure.

  • silly2 - 12 years ago

    forgot moonlighting (varies in states) and half of the incoming students come from M.D families. trust me on this one.

  • silly - 12 years ago

    This article is completely bias. Of the litany of reasons to point out (and i won't because i do not have the time) I will say this - most doctors are not in IM. We have a primary care shortage for a reason. Particularly in allopathic schools, must student (>85% of class) go into non-surgical or surgical specialties. These specialties make a multiple of any primary care provider's income. Moreover, someone should take a basic economics class because being in a profession where there is essentially no competition makes for a very "unfair" market. Perhaps the advent of ACO's may address this issue? Do feel bad for someone who isn't accountable for their particular line of work.

    I will say doctors should make good money, but using the training and our backward-driven educational system to justify their incompetence (afterall, if they are so smart why do they take so long to train) is just absurd. Doctors should turn their attention to fixing the process. Maybe start with eliminating one of those didactic years in medical school. Also do you really need to go through clinical rotations and even have a forth year? That should cut some of those loans.

  • jas - 12 years ago

    I am a physician and do not drive a luxury car or live in million dollar home. it would be a financial impossibility for me to do so if I ever wanted to retire. I drive a subaru and live in a 320,000 dollar home. while that is quite nice It certainly doesn't match what most people expect from physicians.

    One point that is lost in this argument is the need to keep physician salaries high to keep entry in to the field very competitive. If salaries were to drop then you would find less desirable candidates entering the field. I would not want to be a patient of someone who became a physician because he/she couldn't get into a decent school or career and became a physician as a back up plan. There is just way to much to know with too little margin of error to not have the very best people in the field.

  • Woody, MD - 12 years ago

    Agreed. I cannot sustain these hours away from my family and the debt. Goodbye IM, hello fellowship. I hope it gets better after three more years. If not, there will certainly be a more desirable cohort of patients in the subspecialty.

  • Ro - 12 years ago

    The problem isn't the compensation, it's the debt incurred from overpriced tuition and expensive loan rates. The solution isn't to pay physicians more money (i.e. raise the cost of healthcare), the solution is to create affordable education.

    I'd like to add that your numbers for high school teachers are way off. I am a high school English teacher and I spend 70-100 hours a week working for my students. I recently calculated my hourly wage based on an 80 hour work week for 26 weeks (183 contract days) and I came up with $20.67 per hour. However, if you factor in that during my vacations I spend at least half of that time planning, grading, and at conferences (often paid for with my own money) that calculation drops to $16.25 (not including non-refundable expenditures). Keep in mind, that figure doesn't take into account my California taxes. After taxes I make $12.50 per hour. I won't go into the calculations for loan payments but that would obviously drop my hourly even more significantly.

    I don't want to make this a game of "I'm more victimized than you!" because that's just ridiculous. I just think your calculations for a teacher's income are a gross misrepresentation. As a teacher, I have no desire to get paid more. I just wish things weren't so expensive.

  • BIGP550 - 12 years ago

    Tax code shoud've been redone plus partial loan repayment should be forgiven or / and forgiven

  • dbm - 12 years ago

    @William- Teachers put in long days when they work. He isn't talking about professors at universities or even community colleges because they do make more money. He is talking about elementary and high school teachers. During the school year they may put in 9 hour days, occasionally 10, with their planning, teaching, and grading. At the same time, they get a summer vacation every year. They don't work for over 3 months of the year if you add in summer break, spring break, Christmas break, Thanksgiving break, and federal Holidays. So the salary they make is really only for about 9 months. Now if you calculate it out using nine months as a year instead of 12, you will see that they are compensated very well for their time. This isn't a knock on teachers at all, it's just that their training and time spent actually working is nowhere near that of a physician.

  • Joe - 13 years ago

    Internal medicine is the epitome of work... They are constantly getting paged about their inpatients... New admits, problems with existing inpatients, and so on...

    It's a real beat down. Very long hours.... Tied to a phone and a pager as well as work.

  • William - 13 years ago

    Interesting analysis. It's fair to say that some doctors aren't paid enough. I certainly agree with that. A lot are paid enough. Some are paid too much.

    A few comments:

    I don't think it is correct to use median values to scale up to lifetime earnings if income is not normally distributed.

    The hours worked per week is for physicians from many specialties. I doubt internal medicine doctors work the long hours on average that some other specialties do.

    The pay you include for teachers includes teachers with post baccalaureate degrees - but you don't include any training costs or time investment in these degrees.

    Teaching requires a daily significant investment of time outside of class. For many teachers, nearly 7 hours a day is active teaching, lesson planning, grading, etc takes many hours past that. I think to just declare the outside of work time investment 'equal' is a bit unfair. Most teachers I know put in at least 10-20 hours in outside of the normal work week.

  • Gallant2m - 13 years ago

    I agree. many doctors are teachers in addition to being clinicians, researchers, scientists. So of course, they do deserve to be compensated more than teachers.

  • dbm - 13 years ago

    @das- I see where you are coming from when you talk about families where one or both of the parents are doctors and therefore can afford to pay for the children to also go to medical school. Unfortunately that is a false claim. I know this because my wife is currently in medical school and she has quite a few classmates with doctor parents. Most of the students went through undergraduate with the help of parents but when it comes to medical school they get little or no help at all. Most parents even with the salary of a doctor can't afford to pay off their loans and pay the $75,000/year that it is costing my wife to go to school (this is including everything, tuition, living, transportation, etc.) One explanation I was given was that the parents helped get them to medical school, they needed to get themselves the rest of the way. If you make it through medical school you will have the means to pay off the loans, but it will take a long time to do it and a big chunk of money like was indicated in the article above. Again, the author isn't saying they don't make "a lot" of money, it is just deceiving as to how much they make. They make four times what a teacher makes but they put in 7 times the amount of training, 1.5 times the amount of hours/week, and borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars more.

    As far as driving luxury cars and owning million dollar homes, that is because they do make more money. Nobody denies that, it is just that they are not compensated fairly per hour. They barely make more money an hour and if they did not work 60 hour weeks, they would not be able to afford those things. I know they don't get paid hourly, but you have to look at it like they do. They DO work 60 hours so when breaking down their salary it only comes out to a little more then teachers. They don't have the choice to only work 40 hours. Sorry if this next comment offends anybody, teachers especially, but doctors deserve to make a lot more then teachers. We need teachers, don't get me wrong, but they only work 30 some hours a week, they don't work nearly as many hours, have less loans, and less training. Fortunately doctors won't strike like teachers do because they understand our need for them. Again, we need educators, but they make enough money for what they do. Doctors are greatly underpaid and in a lot of cases under-appreciated as well.

    @B- I agree the amount of training needs to come down, but like the article says, if you want competent doctors who know their stuff, the amount of training and schooling will never go down. They need that long to learn everything. I wish reading the article you would see that, and understand that they are not overpaid.

  • Das - 13 years ago

    As with any interest-loan system, a reduction of principal at the beginning can make drastic changes over time. While the math makes sense for someone starting from scratch with no financial support from their family, I'm not sure thats the usual starting point for the aspiring doctor.

    I'd like to see some exact statistics, but a lot of medical school students I know come from families of doctors... is a family that's already financially stable more likely to take on the expense of medical school for the younger generations? While you can certainly point to the cases where someone pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps as evidence that it's possible, the math won't hold true for physicians who didn't incur the expenses upfront and ensuing interest because they were financed by their families.

    While you could make the same argument for teachers, the disparity relies largely on compounding interest over a long period of training with no income... you may find that there's a much wider gap between teachers and physicians than this specific case depicts.

    As an anecdotal observation, I don't know many teachers who drive luxury cars and live in million dollar houses, but I know quite a few doctors who do... there must be some underlying explanation for what I believe most would consider a common observation.

  • B - 13 years ago

    YES, doctors make too much money. But, they also have to do too much "training" and they pay way too much tuition. Both sides of the equation need to come down.

  • Kevin Pezzi, MD - 14 years ago

    Your article is superb! I placed a link to it on one of my pages:

    http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html

    When I have time, I will discuss your article in one of my Question & Answer pages on that site. I'm now making a robotic chef so that I (or anyone else) can prepare food by using a touch screen on the device or any computer or phone with an Internet connection. A Facebook friend recently commented about how "physicians have been given so much by society." I wondered, GIVEN? I wasn't given anything; I paid dearly for it in many ways, as your article illustrates. I've worked as hard to get out of medicine as I did to get into it. If medicine was the dream job many laymen think it is, working that hard to get out of medicine makes as much sense as desperately seeking to free myself from the embrace of a beauty queen who wished to kiss me.

Leave a Comment

0/4000 chars


Submit Comment