And how the hell did Public Enemy not make it past Blackstar? Taking Mobb Deep all day vs Beastie Boys, Shook Ones Part II is generational. Still smh over Tribe getting knocked out by Outkast. Outkast, really? How bet half the people on here only voted them because they think that Hey Ya is a good song, smh
Bester - 9 years ago
How does the Tribe not beat Outkast? NO taste
hamish - 10 years ago
Wutang as a group does not beat OutKast.... but had it been including all solo albums from each member of the Wutang than Wu>Outkast. But this is a group vote, you Aquemini, ATliens, Stankonia > 36 Chambers
Mix Master Mike - 10 years ago
Outkast are good but Wu Tang is for the children. Wack suckas vote for Wu !
C Money - 10 years ago
Worth noting: the album sales argument is weak as Outkast became more of a pop group in the early 2000s, thus appealing to a much larger demographic than Wu-Tang. Simply put, everyone from your mom to your little sister felt comfortable listening to Outkast, whereas Wu-Tang was only for those that listened to hip hop.
Comparing album sales between the two is apples and oranges.
I love both of these groups, so I'm fine with either winning, but what I can't stand is arguments based on arbitrary statistics. It's important to analyze stats before deeming them the authority on an argument!
C Money - 10 years ago
I was surprised to see Outkast beating Wu-Tang, but some posters have made a solid point: Outkast was able to redefine themselves with each album and stay fresh whereas Wu-Tang stagnated after Wu Tang Forever; however, it is important to note the solo albums Wu-Tang spawned in the mid 90s.
Now, some users have noted that Outkast has not only been relevant for a longer period of time, but Big Boi and Andre have a large amount of solo work that is not being considered. Using that logic, we are omitting Liquid Swords (GZA), Only Built for Cuban Linx (Raekwon), Brooklyn Zoo (ODB) , Fishscale (Ghostface), RZA as Bobby Digital, and so on.
Adding to this, Wu Tang's importance to East Coast hip hop cannot be understated. Although Illmatic by Nas is typically cited as the album that restored New York's hip hop spirit, I believe Wu-Tang should be equally credited especially since Enter the 36 Chambers came out in 1993 - a year before Illmatic.
Consequently, it is important to remember that Wu-Tang is more than Enter the 36 Chambers and Wu-Tang Forever. Thus, I argue Wu-Tang is the better hip hop group despite Outkast having a longer period of relevancy.
Inwhysee - 10 years ago
Got to give da people!!!!! Give the people what they want!!!!!
phart - 10 years ago
thanks, Dickkopf. I'll check it out.
Fellow heads, these things are frivolous fun-- I wanted Wu Tang too.
Unbunch thy panties and consider more important things to stress about, like Syria or LeBron's hairline.
goldie - 10 years ago
fuck outkast they are fucking pussies wu-tang forever !
Max - 10 years ago
@ Jack
You and people like you are the reason we can't have nice thing anymore and the reason we have to deal with Bieber and Cyrus on daily basis EVERYWHERE from the fucking Facebook to the fucking EVERYWHERE. Bieber probably outsold wu-tang too, so i guess bieber is much better. Right? RIGHT???? Motherfuckers talk about hip hop and than support their arguments with grammys and how many times CD went platinum? FOR REAL? Where the fuck am I? HOLLYWOOD OR SOMETHING?
Ol' Dirty Bastard is rolling in his grave - 10 years ago
This vote is worse than the 2000 Presidential election. smh at you unknowing niggas.
Tony - 10 years ago
It's the Source Awards all over again.
That said, Outkast is better than Wu and I'm born and raised in Brooklyn. The way Outkast could morph after each and every album and still remain relevant and dope. No other group has been able to remain relevant for as long as Outkast has. Now there have been groups that have been more revolutionary, but even then their shelf life was very short comparatively. You knew exactly what you were getting from the Wu each and every album. During the first phase that was great (All the way up to Wu-Tang Forever), During the second phase, it was stale. They just stayed a bit too stagnant for me.
Zachary mark - 10 years ago
I know you like to think your shit don't stink..
Caesar - 10 years ago
To whoever said Outkast shouldn't have even beaten ATCQ, THANK YOU! How they are winning this final against Wu-Tang is a disgrace. This is the best hip hop group of all time. Not which tandem sold the most. Wu-Tang was a turning point for Hip Hop. It transcended time and revolutionized a generation of the genre. But I digress.
No disrespect to Outkast, but I was surprised they beat Tribe in the semi's, and stunned they are winning this final.
Phil - 10 years ago
When The people judge HipHop by sales and pop culture awards it goes completely against what the artform stands for. I like outkast don't get me wrong but The Wu Tang is a movement that completely changed the whole genre whereas outkast are a duo who were good and achieved commercial success.
I still think this whole thing was wrong from the start as i can't think of a single argument to why Blackstar are included ( 2 rappers who came together for 1 album ) and Meth and Red are omitted ( 2 rappers who came together for 2 albums TV shows a film and a constant run of tours).
Back to the actual topic, Wu tang will leave a worldwide legacy on hiphop equal to anybody who ever got involved in the game whereas outkast will leave a pretty good legacy in the USA but worldwide they are seen more as a pop/commercial act. I know this is unfair but speaking as an english bloke who has loved hiphop for over 20 years The Wu are seen as hip hop royalty by the mainstream in the uk whereas outkast only really got any recognition with their later projects and most of that was the made for radio singles.
Like i said earlier i am a fan of outkast especially their early stuff but I am truly amazed this is turning out this way.
For those people talking about sales and awards being the key criteria I would just like to say please stop because that legitimizes egomaniac pop stars like Kanye West's place in hip hop history.
Jack - 10 years ago
Ha ha, came back on here to sop up those hater tears, shit is delicious.
If you want to bash the Grammys then go ahead and bash album sales, chart positions and any other stats that invalidate the idea that your favorite group isn't as successful as Outkast.
If you don't like Outkast that's all good. If you love Wu, that's youre right but like I have been saying since day 1 of this, there isn't a single measure of a successful artist that Wu hangs with Outkast in. They outsold the entire Wu discography including solo releases in 6 studio albums. I didnt even count Big Boi's solos in the sales totals because I didn't need to.
Most sales, most awards, charts higher, one of only 7 artists to ever replace themselves at #1 on the charts. Dont hate, appreciate. Outkast are the winners, and rightfully so.
Wu36 - 10 years ago
TRIUMPH!!! Enough said. I mean seriously folks? I love Outkast, I mean LOVE THEM! Lyrically and just how you feel listening to someone, you can't tell me that Outkast has something on Wu in that department. Let's be real besides Method and RZA, from a pop culture stand point no one else from Wu stands out when it comes to acting and other media. Also Outkast has more of their songs being blasted on top 40 radio, in tv shows, and movies.
GFunk - 10 years ago
Return of the gangsta thanks ta'
them niggas that thank you soft
and say y'all be gospel rappin'
but they be steady clappin' when you talk about
bitches & switches & hoes & clothes & weed
let's talk about time travelin' rhyme javelin
somethin' mind unravelin' get down.
Possum Aloysius Jenkins but yall can call him Andre 3000 fa short.
Inwhysee - 10 years ago
I'm sorry Jacoby, I am for real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Larry - 10 years ago
There's no doubt that Jacoby has stopped doing podcasts in protest of what the PEOPLE have said. I sent him a tweet the day this thing came out saying a) Outkast as a 2 seed is a disgrace and b) Outkast would prove it. Done and Done.
Colin - 10 years ago
Is Jacoby just waiting until Wu Tang gets enough votes to say that the contest is over and do a podcast? I feel like this has been over for 2 weeks.
Brookes - 10 years ago
I've literally lived half my life in NJ and other half in ATL. Moved to ATL in '96 1 month before ATLiens dropped. I love both of these groups are deserving. Can't be mad for either winner, but I go Wu-Tang by a NOSE HAIR. I know one of my boys has voted too and he probably went OutKast by a nose hair.
Joshua - 10 years ago
I love wu but i just want to see outkast win to see jacobys reaction
Joshua - 10 years ago
I love wu but i just want to see outkast win to see jacobys reaction
Jah the God - 10 years ago
The Wu forms like Voltron, lets not forget!
There is seriously no way the Wu should lose this match-up, or any match up for that matter in this bracket. Outkast isn't even better than Tribe Called Quest.. I don't even have to get into the entire Wu-Tang catalog, but I would even put up Ghostface's catalog against Outkast as a group, and it would be blow for blow. We're not even counting Raekwon's Cuban Linx, Gza's Liquid Swords, etc..
The Wu changed the game, changed the WORLD even.. heck, you will never see a person with an Outkast tattoo.. Lets be real. PEACE
ben - 10 years ago
@ant Completely agree. All this grammy/popularity album talk shows you who we're dealing with here.
This is HIP HOP people...
And to Rob who says andre and big boi can murder everyone in wu-tang lyrically?
You're embarrassing yourself.
Ant - 10 years ago
and who is this fool talking about Grammy awards? Your priorities are all fucked up.
Ant - 10 years ago
4,685 suckers and counting. GTFOH. I guess what can you expect when Black Star knocks out EPMD. There isn't a person on earth who has any sense of hiphop history that would even vote Outkast over EPMD never mind Wu-Tang. What's next, Outkast over Gangstarr? Andre 3000 over Kool G Rap? sad.
mike - 10 years ago
The poll is for greatest group ever, not which group had the best albums. You have to take into account what the solo acts were able to accomplish on their own as well as collectively to assess their worth. You wouldn't compare the Avengers vs the Justice League and not debate whether Superman can kick Hulk's ass. That being said, for me I just use the tried and true "stuck on an island" test. If I were stuck on an island and I could only have one of these groups discographies, it would be Wu-Tang and it wouldn't even be close. Enter the Wu-Tang and Ghostface's solo efforts alone win the contest. You throw in the Only Built For Cuban Linx Albums and it's a wrap for me. This is taking nothing away from Outkast. If they win this I won't be mad. But I'm not getting stuck on an island without being able to bump Wildflower on my stereo every now and then.
Rob - 10 years ago
Both Andre 3000 and Big Boi MURDER EVERYBODY in Wu Tang lyrically. I happen to be a Wu fan from NY, but all you have to do is listen to to them and the truth is undeniable. Also in terms of career accomplishments and popularity it's not really all that close. Outkast also gets extra credit for letting the world know that the south is not all 2 Live Crew and the like and that there are serious lyricists in the south. Outkast should win hands down.
hamid - 10 years ago
If you just look at group albums, yes Outkast wins. But, when you factor in the solo projects which essentially are Wu albums, its a no brainer. Wu Tang also brought forth the clothing line, the unique recording deals, and really stood out during the most competitive time of hip hop.
Terrence - 10 years ago
Jacoby is cool with me, but it was evident from the jump that he has limited love for the south. When talking about Goodie Mob he started singing an outkast song. I'm glad he only gets like 7 votes or Wu would have ran away with this thing.
Terrence - 10 years ago
Jacoby is cool with me, but it was evident from the jump that he has limited love for the south. When talking about Goodie Mob he started singing an outkast song. I'm glad he only gets like 7 votes or Wu would have ran away with this thing.
VA - 10 years ago
HOOTIE HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Inwhysee - 10 years ago
First of all, Tribe should have won this. So I have to vote for Outkast by default, because no way am I voting for that nonsensical WuTang Clan. None of their raps make any sense.
KB - 10 years ago
Outkast is the only radio group to ever go diamond....that should be enough by itself...we're not even gonna debate the fact that 3000 could out rap every artist in the Wu hands down. Andre said it best at the Source Awards...THE SOUTH GOT SOMETHING TO SAY!!! Country Rap Tunes > East Coast Records. Even Jay had to migrate to the south. Y'all expect me to believe Big Pimpin would've been a hit with Raekwon and Meth??? NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO DO IT!!!!!!
Adam Cooper - 10 years ago
OUTKAST are two dudes. They are pretty dope but how in the FUCK can you vote against the WU? This is what you should be voting for, I mean come the fuck on, if this doesn't get you amped then you don't have a pulse:
Wu-Tang Clan
Da Mystery Of Chessboxin'
The game of chess, is like a swordfight
You must think first, before you move
Wu style is immensely strong, and immune to nearly any weapon
When it's properly used, it's almost invincible
Verse One: U-God
Raw imma give it to ya, with no trivia
raw like cocaine straight from Bolivia
my hip hop will rock and shock the nation
like the Emancipation Proclamation
Weak MC's approach with slang that's dead
you might as well run into the wall and bang your head
I'm pushin' force, my force your doubtin'
I'm makin' devils cower to the Caucus Mountains
Verse Two: Inspecta Deck
Well I'm a sire, I set the microphone on fire
rap styles vary, and carry like Mariah
I come from the shaolin slum, and the isle I'm from
is comin through with nuff niggaz, and nuff guns
so if you wanna come sweatin, stressin contesting
you'll catch a sharp sword to the midsection
don't talk the talk, if you can't walk the walk
phony niggaz are outlined in chalk
a man vexed, is what the projects made me
rebel to the grain there's no way to barricade me
steamrollin niggas with the eighteen wheeler
with the drunk driver drivin, there's no survivin
Verse Three: Raekwon the Chef
Ruff like Timberland wear, yeah
me and the Clan, and yo the Landcruisers out there
peace to all the crooks, all the niggaz with bad looks
bald heads, braids, blow this hook
we got chrome tecs, nickel plated macs
black axe, drug dealin'styles in phat stacks
I only been a good nigga for a minute though
cuz I got to get my props, and win it yo
I got beef wit commercial-ass niggas with gold teeth
lampin in a Lexus eatin beef
straight up and down don't even bother
I got fourty niggaz up in here now, who kill niggaz fathers
Chorus: Method Man
My peoples are you with me where you at?
In the front, in the back killa-bees on attack
my peoples are you with me where you at?
Smokin meth hittin caps on the block with the gats
Verse Four: Ol Dirty Bastard
Here I go, deep type flow
Jacque Cousteau could never get this low..I'm
Cherry bombin' shits...BOOM
just warmin up a little bit, vroom vroom
rappinin is what's happenin
keep the pockets stacked and then, hands clappin and
at the party when I move my body
gotta get up, and be somebody
grab the microphone put strength to the bone
DUH-DUH-DUH...enter the Wu-Tang zone
sure enough when I rock that stuff
huff puff?? I'm gonna catch your bluff tuff
rough, kickin rhymes like Jim Kelly
or Alex Haley im a Mi-..Beetle Bailey rhymes
comin raw style, hardcore
niggas be comin to the hip-hop store
comin to buy grocery from me
tryin to be a hip-hop MC
the law, in order to enter the Wu-Tang
you must bring the Ol Dirty Bastard type slang
represent the Gza, Abbot, RZA, Shaquan, Inspecta Deck
dirty hoe gettin low wit his flow
introducin' the Ghostface Killer
no one could get illa
Chorus
Verse Five: Ghost Face Killer
Speakin of the devil psych, no it's the God, get the shit right
mega trife, and yo I killed you in a past life
on the mic while you was kickin that fast shit
you renegged tried again, and got blasted
half mastered ass style mad ruff task
when I struck I had on Tims and a black mask
Remember that shit? I know you don't remember jack
That night yo I wuz hittin like a spiked bat
and then you thought I was bugged out, and crazy
strapped for nonsense, after me became lazy
yo, nobody budge while I shot slugs
Never shot thugs, I'm runnin with thugs that flood mugs
so grab your eight plus one, start flippin and trippin
niggas is jettin I'm lickin off son
[Wu, Tang, Wu, Tang, Wu, Tang, Wu, Tang!!!!]
Verse Six: Master Killer
Homicide's illegal and death is the penalty
What justifies the homicide, when
Yocraig - 10 years ago
I don't really know why, but somehow Wu-Tang flew out of range of my radar back then. I hearing people talk about them, but maybe that was one of my rock periods. The grunge thing. Nirvana and Pearl Jam. On the other hand Outkast couldn't be missed, so they got my vote.
I don't think either is really the greatest hip-hop band of all time tho. I would've given that to PE. Or even NWA or Run-DMC. O well.
matt - 10 years ago
Wow...so tough. I've been bitching about body of work and longevity this whole tournament which fell on def ears in some scenarios...with that said, Outkast should bring home the Win...but i can't turn my back on the East Coast and birth place of hip hop. Although Wu doesn't have the stats and career as an outkast or beastie boys they did change the game in '93, brought the grime and realness, spawned a number of solid solo MC's and albums i'm throwing them my vote. I won't have a problem with outkast winning this thing.
The Abstract - 10 years ago
It might be sad but I'm voting for Wu only because Kast took out Tribe. I'm not gonna lie tho, I grew up with Outkast as a preteen and teenager. Always a special place in my heart
The Abstract - 10 years ago
It might be sad but I'm voting for Wu only because Kast took out Tribe. I'm not gonna lie tho, I grew up with Outkast as a preteen and teenager. Always a special place in my heart
I'm a 24 white male... Who the heck do you think I'm voting for?
Jordan - 10 years ago
At the beginning of this tournament when the entries were being determined Jacoby made a comment about how he could tell how old a person was and what part of the country they were from by who they nominated.
I think OutKast winning right now is a product of that statement. I'm assuming most of the viewership of the pod is 18-30ish. If your middle school and high school were between like 96-08 there's a really good chance OutKast was played at every dance and every house party you went to. A new Outkast video on MTV was talked about the next day at school. Clique-wise basically EVERYONE listened OutKast. OutKast was serious business...
and then "Hey Ya!" came out.
Rego - 10 years ago
@da business
This poll may not matter in the big picture to you, but for me this poll from beginning to end opened up my ears to a bunch of groups I never really noticed before. I'm from the part of Texas that'll sell out a low level country artist faster than if Tupac and Biggie came to life and put out a joined show. Or let me put it this way, I didn't even know BET was a channel until I went to visit my sister after she graduated and moved closer to Houston. Anyways, I just wanted to show some appreciation for this tournament and all the commenters that recommended some good songs along the way.
Da Business - 10 years ago
@ the end of the day, this poll/tournament doesn't mean a thing. I personally will take Outkast ova the Wu but, it's just my opinion. I'm 32 yrs old and I'm from the south, I related to Outkast a little more than the Wu. There is no need for this back and front debate. U like what u like period. I'm just glad that they made it this far and they're getting the shine that they deserve.
ben - 10 years ago
voltron
ben - 10 years ago
despite what some idiots have said the 2 best groups are right where they should be.
My vote is for the WU but can't get mad if outkast wins-musical diversity and longevity should matter when it comes to this. Also I personally count the wu solo joints when I think about their greatness as a group because everyone in the group is on everyone else's album. with rya producing they're pretty much wu albums featuring meth, ghost are etc. plus unlike NWA no one left the group after attaining solo success. in my opinion if you leave the group permanently then your albums shouldn't count.
the wu continue to form like volition....
Doyers - 10 years ago
@ Roc
Not counting Wu solo albums is ridiculous. At the very least you have to count the original 5 solo albums, they were all 100% produced by the RZA with fellow members spitting verses on almost every song.
E - 10 years ago
All I know is that Supervillain_T Sucks big ones.
Rego - 10 years ago
Don't wanna be THAT guy but I noticed on here a couple times people said Jalen said this would be who comes in second to Wu. Jalen didn't say that. That's been Jacoby since day one.
Roc - 10 years ago
I don't think you can consider the Wu solo projects as part of their catalog because they weren't technically packaged and sold as Wu albums but instead as GZA, Rae, Ghost, etc project. Unlike Speakerboxxx/Love Below which despite basically being two solo albums sold as one, is still marketed and presented as an Outkast album.Overall I like both groups but I find that people overrate Wu, yes Enter 36 Chambers was great but after that they never fully lived up to the potential they promised with that first album.
Outkast has my vote purely on product. Combine both group's discography and rank them and I think Outkast has 3 of the top 4 albums, with Stankonia, ATLiens and Aquemeni (all classics) beating out mostly everything Wu has produced. People talk about longevity but look at the hype that was created this summer when Outkast announced a reunion tour, and this has been a whole decade since producing any new music.
I never got why Jalen said this bracket was basically to decide "who was going to lose to Wu in the finals", I thought they probably should have lost to NWA (if you want to talk about impact NWA is second to only Run DMC, and thats debatable).
Supervillain_T - 10 years ago
@Bubba. Word. West is totally underrepresented; and even worse one of their representatives was Cypress Hill. How could there be no Thug Life??? Only one album, but what a stellar one it was! "Pour Out a Lil Liquor" is my vote for best 2Pac track ever. Not that they would make my championship matchup, but definitely at least the elite 8.
MattGold - 10 years ago
I'll frankly ignore anything past Aquemeni and still vote Outkast (although Speakerboxxx/The Love Below was hot). Love me some Wu - but ATLiens/Aquemeni were just Earth shaking.
Bubba - 10 years ago
@Supervillain_T You keep saying that Outkast is winning because of popularity but last time I checked Drake made a song called Wu-Tang Forever that had all of these teenage white girls wearing Wu-Wear. Wu-Tang easily has the most recognizable logo out of any hip-hop artist so let's just stay focused on the music and that is where Outkast is just simply better I love the Wu but there group albums just don't have that same feeling after 36 chambers and like I stated before this is about GROUPS TICAL CUBAN LINX LIQUID SWORDS RETURN TO 36 DON'T COUNT! I do agree with you on this tournament's east coast bias only having 4 groups from the West is a damn shame
Alex c - 10 years ago
I don't think Outkast is superior to the Wu but I am fine with them winning. They had the good fortune of coming up in an era where it was finally uncool in most areas to say you disliked rap but their material would still be quality in any decade. If people want to complain about recency bias I think Public Enemy losing to Black Star is the easier way to make a point.
AP - 10 years ago
These are the top groups, and I'm glad the people got this right. I won't be mad if either win, but Outkast is the greatest group of all-time, and their 2 seed was a joke.
Supervillain_T - 10 years ago
Outkast is only the 10th best group in this tournament. Wu Tang is just the 5th best. Throw in Thug Life and Arrested Development (both of whom were egregiously snubbed), and Outakst falls to 12 and Wu to 6.
Cypress Hill and Three 6 Mafia still fall somewhere in the #100-plus range, trailing most high-school trios doing open mic night at an 18-and-over club.
Supervillain_T - 10 years ago
@Damien, @Tyreke: right on!
@Mount Latono, @ Bubba: you're just stupid.
@Bosna: I agree that neither group is in my Top 2. But both are still good. Obviously the majority is never right. That's why weed and same-sex marriage are illegal, yet owning assault rifles and capital punishment are fine according to the law. People are stupid. But I feel somewhat positive about humanity seeing Wu in these finals: not a big over-marketed radio commodity and a downright great rap group. The sad thing is that we all know Outkast is going to win (again, not that they are bad), because (1) they are pretty much the only "rap group" that the 25-and-under crowd are aware of and (2) they are definitely the most radio-friendly and mass-marketed group ever. And mass-marketing gears toward people with the most simplistic tastes, not those of us with artistic sentiments. And, as I said before, most people are stupid.
Jae - 10 years ago
haha im so ready to see Jalen flipping out when Outkast wins this
Doyers - 10 years ago
If we're counting Wu solo albums I don't think this is a contest. 36 Chambers, Liquid Swords, Cuban Linx, Tical, and Supreme Clientele far outweigh the 5 best Outkast albums. Definitely the two best groups though.
Duane Face - 10 years ago
It's been stated but I'll say it again: Aquemini, by OutKast, is the album to start with if you aren't familiar with them.
About timing:
Wu started in 1992; OutKast started in 1993. All discussions about generational differences are moot.
The only difference between the two is growth. Wu has stayed with the same format and brand of music throughout their still existing career; even 'till this day.
In comparison, each OutKast album is sonically different from the previous. Completely different. And that is why six different people can claim a different album as their favorite. Growth is what allows OutKast the opportunity to appeal music lovers of varying tastes. Including Wu Tang's own, Raekwon, who made an appearance on the album, Aquemini.
Bubba - 10 years ago
Outkast is better than Wu-Tang the only Wu album that is classic all the way through is Enter 36 Chambers Kast has ATLiens Aquemini and Stankonia 3 classics IN A ROW you can listen to those 3 albums back to back with out skipping one track and this is a bracket about GROUPS so the Wu solo albums don't count no matter how great any of them were if that were the case then you would have to count The Chronic and Death Certificate for NWA and that just makes this whole thing confusing so in conclusion out of all the rappers involved in this entire bracket 3 stacks is the best hands down just listen to Aquemini
Mount Latino - 10 years ago
I hate people trying to make this a race thing. OutKast is only for white college boys? I've seen more poser white hipster girls wearing Wu shirts than any other rapper/rap group. And people arguing that OutKast is pop music? They obviously haven't sat down and listened to Millennium or Babylon or Aquemini or Da Art of STorytellin' (Part 2).
Wu Tang may be forever, but as they say in Aquemini: "Nothin' is for sure nothin' is for certain nothin' lasts forever, But until they close the curtain, it's him and I, Aquemini."
Bosna - 10 years ago
To have either of these groups in the finals is a joke... Wu Tang is the cheesiest group ever, and outkast is only here because of the mainstream hits they had for the younger generation.. Joke of a bracket, not gonna vite for either
jack - 10 years ago
My bad on that then Patrick, you're right. It wasn't on the Wu-Tang wiki page, and I searched on the net for any Grammy wins and I didn't find that one. I stand corrected on that statement.
Patrick - 10 years ago
Sick finals matchup. Either one is worthy if the win.
I know Grammy awards can't choose a winner but if you're going to use them at least be correct. Meth won with Mary J.
I also think that any one who thinks Meth couldn't carry a whole album needs a head shake. He is one of the greatest. Tical is like an hour and a half long and every song is awesome.
Mark Keppel - 10 years ago
Aquemini puts Outkast over the top, imo, but 36 Chambers is just as good if not better. Glad these two are in the final, love for Quest as well.
Favian - 10 years ago
Wu-Tang just has too many classics; they have more classics than Outkast has releases. To be slightly more thorough I will list what I mean (also to leave room for any correction if I am wrong).
Outkast:
Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik
ATLeans
Aquemini
Stankonia
Speakerboxxx/Love Below
Idlewild
Wu-Tang (I personally believe the solo projects should be counted as they all had the Wu-Tang brand):
Enter the 36 Chambers
Liquid Swords
Ironman
Only Built 4 Cuban Linx
Tical
Supreme Clientele
The W
Return to the 36 Chambers
I just want to throw in the Fishscale reached #2 rap/hip-hop album of 2006 (#4 overall), and so did Only Built 4 Cuban Linx 2 in 2009. Let's also keep in mind that "Hey Ya!" was released in 2003 (Idlewild did peak at #2 overall in 2006 though). Wu-Tang's 1st release was also ~1 year before Outkast's. The RZA also just released a movie, and was doing the Afro Samurai shit too.
I really don't see an argument for Outkast here outside of singles charts (Hey Ya! carried that double album), and I love Outkast from Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik, ATLiens, and all that (except I'm not a blind fanboy....Idlewild was not very good). Since the Wu members liked to tell stories in their albums...they didn't really have that many captivating singles, plus their hey-day was in the "golden age" of rap. I could be biased in the culture aspect (I'm from NYC), but for me Wu put a mark down on Hip-Hop for everyone at the time (only feature on Ready to Die is Method Man, even he gave a big shout).
Abhay - 10 years ago
I definitely want Wu Tang Clan to win, but I'm very happy that this is as close as it is compared to a lot of the other matchups.
Doyers - 10 years ago
@SMAC
I think you're off point with the Method Man argument. He certainly got them a lot of exposure and was an integral member, but without RZA, GZA, Ghost, or Raekwon, you could make the same argument for how much their absence would affect the quality of the music (RZA most importantly, since he set the background for the tracks). I think this is proven by Tical not holding up well against Liquid Swords or Cuban Linx, the other dudes could carry an entire album better than him.
Jack - 10 years ago
In fact, to me when you look at the debate the best comparison might be Michael Vick vs. Joe Montana.
Damian - 10 years ago
Its really a shame NWA isnt in the finals...
Jack - 10 years ago
Mike, obviously everyone is going to vote according to favorites, but if you're going to analyze "best" hip-hop group, how else are you going to do it? This bracket will end up determining who everyone's favorite is.
It's just like any GOAT debate in sports. Some people say Jim Brown, or Barry Sanders. Others say Walter Payton or Gale Sayers. Other people might argue that it's Emmit Smith. Everyone has their favorites. There are a bunch of people who will argue the metrics, All-pros, MVPs, rings, stats, it all goes into it.
If you frame the debate that way, to me it's like Steve Young (Wu) vs. Joe Montana (Outkast). Montana owns the stats and the rings, has the longevity to back it up. Steve Young was amazing in his own right but the longevity and the stats aren't as good. Both are amazing choices, but one of them has the objective numbers to back up the subjective love.
To be honest, Wu Tang is really like Chris Johnson to me. He came out and blew up, and then fell off. That's how I honestly see Wu, but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I find pretty much all post-99 Wu Tang to be disappointing.
Mike - 10 years ago
Jack you're way off base here. There's nothing objective about 'what's your favorite hip hop group?' It's an inherently subjective question. Trying to bring objectivity into in it in the way of album sales or award nominations is just foolish.
Dickkopf - 10 years ago
@Phart:
1st 3 outkast albums are great. But if you want THE best album and one of the greatest HipHop albums ever, that's Aquemini. Somany awesome tracks. Basically, each track on that album is great.
peace
Jack - 10 years ago
Phart - Go listen to their first 4 albums on Spotify right now.
Supervillain, it is a matter of taste. Outkast's success has nothing to do with them being "pop" at all. Just like Wu's greatness has nothing to do with them being underground. They are on polar opposites of the style spectrum, but they have even collaborated together.
Anyone dismissing Outkast as "fast food" or "pop" is just ignorant of how good they are. It is two excellent emcees putting out consistently high-level production and great lyrical content across 13 years of albums.
Also, your categorization of Outkast as fast food perplexes me, because a grimy beat with like 3 samples and emcees spitting about killing people and doing drugs seems more fast food to me than something with elaborate production and thoughtful subject matter. Maybe Hey Ya is fast food, but even Hey Ya has deeper subject matter than Triumph.
phart - 10 years ago
i honestly didn't know that outkast was considered hip hop by fans until this bracket. the only tracks i've heard are sing-songy, disposable pop. please recommend an album for an old fart. i'll give them a chance.
Soulja - 10 years ago
Outkast is a great group but Wu Tang is FOREVER.
Tyreke - 10 years ago
PS IF U AREGUE SALES THEN DRAKE BETTER THAN WU AND YOU KNOW THAT SHIT AINT TRUE
Tyreke - 10 years ago
OUTKAST FOR WHITE BOYS IN COLLEGE WHO LIKE "HIP HOP" AND DEAVE MATTHEW. THE WU IS FOREVER.
Dr. Shabazz - 10 years ago
I hate it when people bring up Grammy nominations to argue a group's greatness when every year the Grammys prove how little they really know about real hip hop. If you wanna argue album sales, I guess that's a justifiable factor, but please kill all this Grammy talk!
The SMAC - 10 years ago
First off, props to Jalen and Jacoby for igniting a conversation that is long over do. The extinction of the "rap group" is a topic that needs much attention. With that said, shout out to all those hip hop heads who took part in voting and being apart of the discussion and debate. Though this question is not quite that easy to answer, my vote has to go to the greatest rap group all-time and prob the most underrated…OUTKAST. Although WU is great in their own right and def one of the best ever, their collection of talent cannot hide the fact when it comes down to it, much of their success and popularity is attributed to Method Man and "the name", a point even Bill Simmons was right to bring up. Take Method Man away from WU, and I think WU would be ranked considerably lower, like taking Mike away from the Jackson 5, leaving people to ask "…Just how great really is Tito, Marlin, Jermaine and Jackie???"…incredible considering the number of members in the group. I have always been one of those that have said since day one, Andre is one of thee top 5 greatest rappers of all-time! hands down! In addition, all things even, WU minus Meth and OUTKAST minus Andre, OUTKAST would still be greater. Big Boi, aka "Scottie Pippen" would still be able to take out the remaining members of WU on a solo album. Talk has been the movement created created by WU, but what about that of OUTKAST….aside from the fact they have been more acclaimed then WU, they helped spawn a southern and some might say even a midwest movement. From Goodie Mob, to Cash Money and even grammy winning 3-6 Mafia, OUTKAST has influenced the genre arguably more then any.
Max - 10 years ago
I still see people go to US and come back with Wu Tang tshirts and vinyls and stuff like that (i'm from europe). I still see people listening to WU and ATCQ. Like i said before, i've never, EVER heard ANYTHING about Outkast. Never. It's NON EXISTENT outside US Billboard top 100 chart.
Boobie Miles - 10 years ago
OutKast is the greatest group of ALL-TIME.......nuff said
Supervillain_T - 10 years ago
@Jack
Your arguments actually point to the exact reason that Outkast should NOT win. Radio music is shit; it is catered to the artistically-devoid, mentally-deficient members of society. And all awards shows are just absurd--governed by politics and old white dudes. (Seriously, you can count the number of deserving "best picture" Oscar winners on one hand.)
I think Outkast is OK. Definitely one of the better 3rd coast hiphop acts. But that's like saying McNuggets are pretty good for fast food. Southern rap is like fast food: gluttonously digested by people that wouldn't know refined taste if it kicked them in the ass. And since most people are stupid, it is the kind of music that is popular on the radio to this day. (Again, I will say Outkast is somewhat of an exception. It is not total trash like the Lil Waynes and Lil Johns of the genre.) But real connoisseurs of hip-hop (and music/art in general) recognize that the true gems are not so frivolously distributed. The true greats like Wu, NWA, Tribe, etc. may make a mainstream hit or two to sucker some money out of the mindless masses that listen to whatever the radio dictates, but their true complex flavors are too rich to be experienced in that cheap carnival setting.
Joey - 10 years ago
Disclaimer: I'm just putting all this out there for discussion's sake. Great to go through these names and rediscover some excellent work. Much love to all the heads out there voting on these matchups.
Joey - 10 years ago
I don't wanna harp on it, but a little close look: Outkast has won Rap Performance/Duo thrice (once was Urban or something), Rap Album twice, and an overall Best Album.
Best Rap Album wasn't even a category until 1996, well after Wu's first and many of that first round of solo records. So Outkast still obviously "wins" the awards stat, but a full 1/3 of their Grammys were from a category that did not exist for (arguably) some of the best Wu content. I could be a bit off on some of these dates, I'm going from memory.
My vote still goes for Wu. Numbers/metrics can't be everything; you can get into dangerous territory comparing bands based purely on numbers i.e. REM vs. U2.....85M and 3/14 (wins/nominations) against 150M and 22/???. Does that make U2 a better band by a huge margin? Totally subjective regardless of the gap in awards. (I tried to think of comparable-ish bands, not just something ridiculous like "Nickelback vs. Weezer" or something ridiculous.)
Jack - 10 years ago
Joey - Agreed but we only have so many measurements. Awards, Charts, Sales. Outkast is head and shoulders above Wu in all of those categories. And not just the pop charts. Outkast has consistently done better on the R&B and Rap charts as well. The metrics may be limited but my any metric, Outkast is superior.
Joey - 10 years ago
Because the Grammy's have such a great finger on the pulse of what's good. Case in point: Wu Tang having 1 nomination.
Skewed statistic because the Grammys are by definition subjective.
Jack - 10 years ago
And I even mentioned the golden period of 93-97 for Wu, which definitely includes some amazing solo albums and two great group album. But the real fact is that each Outkast album has outperformed every one of those albums in every metric imaginable.
I'll just repeat again that Outkast outsold the entire Wu-Tang studio album catalog with 6 albums. Every Group album and every solo album COMBINED has not sold as much as the 6 Outkast studio albums.
Jack - 10 years ago
Patricio
Objectively means that the 6 Outkast studio albums have outsold every Wu album INCLUDING solos.
Objectively means that Outkast have 6 Grammys and 17 nominations to Wu's 0 with 1 nomination.
Objectively means that Outkast has charted consistently way higher than ANY Wu album or single.
Those are objective measurements of success of an artist.
SUBJECTIVELY, you can claim that Wu Tang is better beacause you have the right to your opinion, but by every metric we have for measuring an artist's success OBJECTIVELY, Outkast destroys Wu.
Dickkopf - 10 years ago
Come on outkast
Patricio - 10 years ago
"Objectively though, there is no comparison. Outkast is GOAT."
Objectively...You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
If you're counting Speakerboxxx/The Love Below as an Outkast album, you almost have to allow Wu solo albums to be factored into your "metrics." S/TLB is obviously a set of two solo albums packaged together. With the Wu solo work, even if they don't have the sales #s over Outkast still, they blow everyone else out of the water. That first series of Wu solo was unprecedented, and there have been even more great solo records since then.
Jack - 10 years ago
Dr. Shabazz, hey its a sports bracket applied to hip-hop. If you judge it like you would any great athlete or team, Outkast wins handily. Its a joke. But I get you, the cultural impact of Wu in that 93-97 time frame was huge. I love them too. Objectively though, there is no comparison. Outkast is the GOAT.
Dr. Shabazz - 10 years ago
Jack, i dont think your metrics applies here. Its about WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT, AND WHAT THE PEOPLE NEED!!!
Dr. Shabazz - 10 years ago
I take it we're considering solo efforts as well...if so, Wu should easily win this. I'm not mad these are the final two but I just know its gonna come down to regional tastes. People from a certain part of the map are gonna vote accordingly.
Jack - 10 years ago
As a sports fan, looking at it by the numbers, it is obvious that Outkast is the winner in every possible metric. The fact that the race is even viewed as close is the laughable matter here. I'll break it down stat-for-stat because I'm a sports fan and this is what I do.:
Album Charts:
Outkast's debut Album hit #20 on the charts, after that they racked up one #1 and FOUR #2 albums on the US Chart (Three #1s and Three #2s on the R&B Charts overall).
Wu Tang's group albums which debuted at #41, then they came with one #1 and one #5. After that it's been #32 and #25. Not as strong.
Singles Charts:
The highest Wu-tang single ever on the US chart was CREAM at #60. Outkast has charted higher than this with ELEVEN different singles, with three #1 singles. Not even close. On the rap chart, the highest Wu has attained was #6 with Triumph. Outkast has been #5 or higher on the rap chart 5 different times, with four #1s. Again even on the RAP charts, Outkast dominates.
Album Sales:
Every album Outkast has released as gone Platinum. Their double album went Diamond (11x platinum), Overall, their 6 studio albums have gone 21x platinum
Wu has gone platinum on 3 Releases, with one gold and 8 Diagrams only selling 220K for a total of 6x Platinum. Again Outkast dominates in this category. In fact, if you add up ALL of the sales of ALL of the individual Wu Members solo albums, Wu Tang's TOTAL sales in any form is about 15x Platinum. Ouch.
Awards:
Outkast have 6 grammy wins and 17 nominations. No one from the Wu-Tang Clan has ever won a Grammy, either solo or as a group. Collectively they have been nominated one time, for Wu-Tang Forever.
Cultural Impact:
Another big factor in how we typically rate athletes is this factor. People like Terrell Davis or Bo Jackson still resonate with us despite having a very short prime. In this aspect, I believe Wu is superior, and I think that nostalgia is a huge driving factor in the Wu support. Culturally Outkast was very important in their own right and had a unique style that had a great amount of influence. But Wu-Tang had that "holy s---" edge that really exploded. Method Man being dusted out in the Bring the Pain video along with the samurai sound effects and grimy production on RZA was just on a whole different level. I LOOOOOVE Wu, dont get me wrong, and to me in my childhood they made a huge, lasting impact.
Longevity:
Another common metric we use to evaluate our favorite athletes is longevity. Outkast really kills it in this area. They are Joe Montana or Tom Brady. They came on the scene hot, and then got BETTER and BETTER as their career kept going, through the finish, with Idlewild - their last studio album - still charting at #1 .
Wu on the other hand, really peaked with Wu-Tang forever. There were some solo albums that came afterwards that were good such as Tical 2000, but 36 chambers and Wu-Tang Forever are the heyday, along with Tical, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, Ironman and Liquid Swords all great albums in the time period. But even with this, their prime lasted around 4 years, while Outkast kept getting better and better over their 13-year period of studio albums.
So as I said in the beginning of this very-long-bordering-on-character-limit post, when you evaluate this like we would in the sports arena, Outkast is far and away the G.O.A.T. There is no question about it.
Max - 10 years ago
This is just PATHETIC. If Outkast wins my laugh will be heard on the fucking moon.
And how the hell did Public Enemy not make it past Blackstar? Taking Mobb Deep all day vs Beastie Boys, Shook Ones Part II is generational. Still smh over Tribe getting knocked out by Outkast. Outkast, really? How bet half the people on here only voted them because they think that Hey Ya is a good song, smh
How does the Tribe not beat Outkast? NO taste
Wutang as a group does not beat OutKast.... but had it been including all solo albums from each member of the Wutang than Wu>Outkast. But this is a group vote, you Aquemini, ATliens, Stankonia > 36 Chambers
Outkast are good but Wu Tang is for the children. Wack suckas vote for Wu !
Worth noting: the album sales argument is weak as Outkast became more of a pop group in the early 2000s, thus appealing to a much larger demographic than Wu-Tang. Simply put, everyone from your mom to your little sister felt comfortable listening to Outkast, whereas Wu-Tang was only for those that listened to hip hop.
Comparing album sales between the two is apples and oranges.
I love both of these groups, so I'm fine with either winning, but what I can't stand is arguments based on arbitrary statistics. It's important to analyze stats before deeming them the authority on an argument!
I was surprised to see Outkast beating Wu-Tang, but some posters have made a solid point: Outkast was able to redefine themselves with each album and stay fresh whereas Wu-Tang stagnated after Wu Tang Forever; however, it is important to note the solo albums Wu-Tang spawned in the mid 90s.
Now, some users have noted that Outkast has not only been relevant for a longer period of time, but Big Boi and Andre have a large amount of solo work that is not being considered. Using that logic, we are omitting Liquid Swords (GZA), Only Built for Cuban Linx (Raekwon), Brooklyn Zoo (ODB) , Fishscale (Ghostface), RZA as Bobby Digital, and so on.
Adding to this, Wu Tang's importance to East Coast hip hop cannot be understated. Although Illmatic by Nas is typically cited as the album that restored New York's hip hop spirit, I believe Wu-Tang should be equally credited especially since Enter the 36 Chambers came out in 1993 - a year before Illmatic.
Consequently, it is important to remember that Wu-Tang is more than Enter the 36 Chambers and Wu-Tang Forever. Thus, I argue Wu-Tang is the better hip hop group despite Outkast having a longer period of relevancy.
Got to give da people!!!!! Give the people what they want!!!!!
thanks, Dickkopf. I'll check it out.
Fellow heads, these things are frivolous fun-- I wanted Wu Tang too.
Unbunch thy panties and consider more important things to stress about, like Syria or LeBron's hairline.
fuck outkast they are fucking pussies wu-tang forever !
@ Jack
You and people like you are the reason we can't have nice thing anymore and the reason we have to deal with Bieber and Cyrus on daily basis EVERYWHERE from the fucking Facebook to the fucking EVERYWHERE. Bieber probably outsold wu-tang too, so i guess bieber is much better. Right? RIGHT???? Motherfuckers talk about hip hop and than support their arguments with grammys and how many times CD went platinum? FOR REAL? Where the fuck am I? HOLLYWOOD OR SOMETHING?
This vote is worse than the 2000 Presidential election. smh at you unknowing niggas.
It's the Source Awards all over again.
That said, Outkast is better than Wu and I'm born and raised in Brooklyn. The way Outkast could morph after each and every album and still remain relevant and dope. No other group has been able to remain relevant for as long as Outkast has. Now there have been groups that have been more revolutionary, but even then their shelf life was very short comparatively. You knew exactly what you were getting from the Wu each and every album. During the first phase that was great (All the way up to Wu-Tang Forever), During the second phase, it was stale. They just stayed a bit too stagnant for me.
I know you like to think your shit don't stink..
To whoever said Outkast shouldn't have even beaten ATCQ, THANK YOU! How they are winning this final against Wu-Tang is a disgrace. This is the best hip hop group of all time. Not which tandem sold the most. Wu-Tang was a turning point for Hip Hop. It transcended time and revolutionized a generation of the genre. But I digress.
No disrespect to Outkast, but I was surprised they beat Tribe in the semi's, and stunned they are winning this final.
When The people judge HipHop by sales and pop culture awards it goes completely against what the artform stands for. I like outkast don't get me wrong but The Wu Tang is a movement that completely changed the whole genre whereas outkast are a duo who were good and achieved commercial success.
I still think this whole thing was wrong from the start as i can't think of a single argument to why Blackstar are included ( 2 rappers who came together for 1 album ) and Meth and Red are omitted ( 2 rappers who came together for 2 albums TV shows a film and a constant run of tours).
Back to the actual topic, Wu tang will leave a worldwide legacy on hiphop equal to anybody who ever got involved in the game whereas outkast will leave a pretty good legacy in the USA but worldwide they are seen more as a pop/commercial act. I know this is unfair but speaking as an english bloke who has loved hiphop for over 20 years The Wu are seen as hip hop royalty by the mainstream in the uk whereas outkast only really got any recognition with their later projects and most of that was the made for radio singles.
Like i said earlier i am a fan of outkast especially their early stuff but I am truly amazed this is turning out this way.
For those people talking about sales and awards being the key criteria I would just like to say please stop because that legitimizes egomaniac pop stars like Kanye West's place in hip hop history.
Ha ha, came back on here to sop up those hater tears, shit is delicious.
If you want to bash the Grammys then go ahead and bash album sales, chart positions and any other stats that invalidate the idea that your favorite group isn't as successful as Outkast.
If you don't like Outkast that's all good. If you love Wu, that's youre right but like I have been saying since day 1 of this, there isn't a single measure of a successful artist that Wu hangs with Outkast in. They outsold the entire Wu discography including solo releases in 6 studio albums. I didnt even count Big Boi's solos in the sales totals because I didn't need to.
Most sales, most awards, charts higher, one of only 7 artists to ever replace themselves at #1 on the charts. Dont hate, appreciate. Outkast are the winners, and rightfully so.
TRIUMPH!!! Enough said. I mean seriously folks? I love Outkast, I mean LOVE THEM! Lyrically and just how you feel listening to someone, you can't tell me that Outkast has something on Wu in that department. Let's be real besides Method and RZA, from a pop culture stand point no one else from Wu stands out when it comes to acting and other media. Also Outkast has more of their songs being blasted on top 40 radio, in tv shows, and movies.
Return of the gangsta thanks ta'
them niggas that thank you soft
and say y'all be gospel rappin'
but they be steady clappin' when you talk about
bitches & switches & hoes & clothes & weed
let's talk about time travelin' rhyme javelin
somethin' mind unravelin' get down.
Possum Aloysius Jenkins but yall can call him Andre 3000 fa short.
I'm sorry Jacoby, I am for real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There's no doubt that Jacoby has stopped doing podcasts in protest of what the PEOPLE have said. I sent him a tweet the day this thing came out saying a) Outkast as a 2 seed is a disgrace and b) Outkast would prove it. Done and Done.
Is Jacoby just waiting until Wu Tang gets enough votes to say that the contest is over and do a podcast? I feel like this has been over for 2 weeks.
I've literally lived half my life in NJ and other half in ATL. Moved to ATL in '96 1 month before ATLiens dropped. I love both of these groups are deserving. Can't be mad for either winner, but I go Wu-Tang by a NOSE HAIR. I know one of my boys has voted too and he probably went OutKast by a nose hair.
I love wu but i just want to see outkast win to see jacobys reaction
I love wu but i just want to see outkast win to see jacobys reaction
The Wu forms like Voltron, lets not forget!
There is seriously no way the Wu should lose this match-up, or any match up for that matter in this bracket. Outkast isn't even better than Tribe Called Quest.. I don't even have to get into the entire Wu-Tang catalog, but I would even put up Ghostface's catalog against Outkast as a group, and it would be blow for blow. We're not even counting Raekwon's Cuban Linx, Gza's Liquid Swords, etc..
The Wu changed the game, changed the WORLD even.. heck, you will never see a person with an Outkast tattoo.. Lets be real. PEACE
@ant Completely agree. All this grammy/popularity album talk shows you who we're dealing with here.
This is HIP HOP people...
And to Rob who says andre and big boi can murder everyone in wu-tang lyrically?
You're embarrassing yourself.
and who is this fool talking about Grammy awards? Your priorities are all fucked up.
4,685 suckers and counting. GTFOH. I guess what can you expect when Black Star knocks out EPMD. There isn't a person on earth who has any sense of hiphop history that would even vote Outkast over EPMD never mind Wu-Tang. What's next, Outkast over Gangstarr? Andre 3000 over Kool G Rap? sad.
The poll is for greatest group ever, not which group had the best albums. You have to take into account what the solo acts were able to accomplish on their own as well as collectively to assess their worth. You wouldn't compare the Avengers vs the Justice League and not debate whether Superman can kick Hulk's ass. That being said, for me I just use the tried and true "stuck on an island" test. If I were stuck on an island and I could only have one of these groups discographies, it would be Wu-Tang and it wouldn't even be close. Enter the Wu-Tang and Ghostface's solo efforts alone win the contest. You throw in the Only Built For Cuban Linx Albums and it's a wrap for me. This is taking nothing away from Outkast. If they win this I won't be mad. But I'm not getting stuck on an island without being able to bump Wildflower on my stereo every now and then.
Both Andre 3000 and Big Boi MURDER EVERYBODY in Wu Tang lyrically. I happen to be a Wu fan from NY, but all you have to do is listen to to them and the truth is undeniable. Also in terms of career accomplishments and popularity it's not really all that close. Outkast also gets extra credit for letting the world know that the south is not all 2 Live Crew and the like and that there are serious lyricists in the south. Outkast should win hands down.
If you just look at group albums, yes Outkast wins. But, when you factor in the solo projects which essentially are Wu albums, its a no brainer. Wu Tang also brought forth the clothing line, the unique recording deals, and really stood out during the most competitive time of hip hop.
Jacoby is cool with me, but it was evident from the jump that he has limited love for the south. When talking about Goodie Mob he started singing an outkast song. I'm glad he only gets like 7 votes or Wu would have ran away with this thing.
Jacoby is cool with me, but it was evident from the jump that he has limited love for the south. When talking about Goodie Mob he started singing an outkast song. I'm glad he only gets like 7 votes or Wu would have ran away with this thing.
HOOTIE HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First of all, Tribe should have won this. So I have to vote for Outkast by default, because no way am I voting for that nonsensical WuTang Clan. None of their raps make any sense.
Outkast is the only radio group to ever go diamond....that should be enough by itself...we're not even gonna debate the fact that 3000 could out rap every artist in the Wu hands down. Andre said it best at the Source Awards...THE SOUTH GOT SOMETHING TO SAY!!! Country Rap Tunes > East Coast Records. Even Jay had to migrate to the south. Y'all expect me to believe Big Pimpin would've been a hit with Raekwon and Meth??? NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO DO IT!!!!!!
OUTKAST are two dudes. They are pretty dope but how in the FUCK can you vote against the WU? This is what you should be voting for, I mean come the fuck on, if this doesn't get you amped then you don't have a pulse:
Wu-Tang Clan
Da Mystery Of Chessboxin'
The game of chess, is like a swordfight
You must think first, before you move
Wu style is immensely strong, and immune to nearly any weapon
When it's properly used, it's almost invincible
Verse One: U-God
Raw imma give it to ya, with no trivia
raw like cocaine straight from Bolivia
my hip hop will rock and shock the nation
like the Emancipation Proclamation
Weak MC's approach with slang that's dead
you might as well run into the wall and bang your head
I'm pushin' force, my force your doubtin'
I'm makin' devils cower to the Caucus Mountains
Verse Two: Inspecta Deck
Well I'm a sire, I set the microphone on fire
rap styles vary, and carry like Mariah
I come from the shaolin slum, and the isle I'm from
is comin through with nuff niggaz, and nuff guns
so if you wanna come sweatin, stressin contesting
you'll catch a sharp sword to the midsection
don't talk the talk, if you can't walk the walk
phony niggaz are outlined in chalk
a man vexed, is what the projects made me
rebel to the grain there's no way to barricade me
steamrollin niggas with the eighteen wheeler
with the drunk driver drivin, there's no survivin
Verse Three: Raekwon the Chef
Ruff like Timberland wear, yeah
me and the Clan, and yo the Landcruisers out there
peace to all the crooks, all the niggaz with bad looks
bald heads, braids, blow this hook
we got chrome tecs, nickel plated macs
black axe, drug dealin'styles in phat stacks
I only been a good nigga for a minute though
cuz I got to get my props, and win it yo
I got beef wit commercial-ass niggas with gold teeth
lampin in a Lexus eatin beef
straight up and down don't even bother
I got fourty niggaz up in here now, who kill niggaz fathers
Chorus: Method Man
My peoples are you with me where you at?
In the front, in the back killa-bees on attack
my peoples are you with me where you at?
Smokin meth hittin caps on the block with the gats
Verse Four: Ol Dirty Bastard
Here I go, deep type flow
Jacque Cousteau could never get this low..I'm
Cherry bombin' shits...BOOM
just warmin up a little bit, vroom vroom
rappinin is what's happenin
keep the pockets stacked and then, hands clappin and
at the party when I move my body
gotta get up, and be somebody
grab the microphone put strength to the bone
DUH-DUH-DUH...enter the Wu-Tang zone
sure enough when I rock that stuff
huff puff?? I'm gonna catch your bluff tuff
rough, kickin rhymes like Jim Kelly
or Alex Haley im a Mi-..Beetle Bailey rhymes
comin raw style, hardcore
niggas be comin to the hip-hop store
comin to buy grocery from me
tryin to be a hip-hop MC
the law, in order to enter the Wu-Tang
you must bring the Ol Dirty Bastard type slang
represent the Gza, Abbot, RZA, Shaquan, Inspecta Deck
dirty hoe gettin low wit his flow
introducin' the Ghostface Killer
no one could get illa
Chorus
Verse Five: Ghost Face Killer
Speakin of the devil psych, no it's the God, get the shit right
mega trife, and yo I killed you in a past life
on the mic while you was kickin that fast shit
you renegged tried again, and got blasted
half mastered ass style mad ruff task
when I struck I had on Tims and a black mask
Remember that shit? I know you don't remember jack
That night yo I wuz hittin like a spiked bat
and then you thought I was bugged out, and crazy
strapped for nonsense, after me became lazy
yo, nobody budge while I shot slugs
Never shot thugs, I'm runnin with thugs that flood mugs
so grab your eight plus one, start flippin and trippin
niggas is jettin I'm lickin off son
[Wu, Tang, Wu, Tang, Wu, Tang, Wu, Tang!!!!]
Verse Six: Master Killer
Homicide's illegal and death is the penalty
What justifies the homicide, when
I don't really know why, but somehow Wu-Tang flew out of range of my radar back then. I hearing people talk about them, but maybe that was one of my rock periods. The grunge thing. Nirvana and Pearl Jam. On the other hand Outkast couldn't be missed, so they got my vote.
I don't think either is really the greatest hip-hop band of all time tho. I would've given that to PE. Or even NWA or Run-DMC. O well.
Wow...so tough. I've been bitching about body of work and longevity this whole tournament which fell on def ears in some scenarios...with that said, Outkast should bring home the Win...but i can't turn my back on the East Coast and birth place of hip hop. Although Wu doesn't have the stats and career as an outkast or beastie boys they did change the game in '93, brought the grime and realness, spawned a number of solid solo MC's and albums i'm throwing them my vote. I won't have a problem with outkast winning this thing.
It might be sad but I'm voting for Wu only because Kast took out Tribe. I'm not gonna lie tho, I grew up with Outkast as a preteen and teenager. Always a special place in my heart
It might be sad but I'm voting for Wu only because Kast took out Tribe. I'm not gonna lie tho, I grew up with Outkast as a preteen and teenager. Always a special place in my heart
Wu-Tang Clan
(1993) Enter the Wu-Tang: 36 Chambers
(1997) Wu-Tang Forever
(2000) The W
(2001) Iron Flag
(2007) 8 Diagrams
Outkast
(1994) Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik
(1996) ATLiens
(1998) Aquemini
(2000) Stankonia
(2003) Speakerboxxx/The Love Below
(2006) Idlewild
I'm a 24 white male... Who the heck do you think I'm voting for?
At the beginning of this tournament when the entries were being determined Jacoby made a comment about how he could tell how old a person was and what part of the country they were from by who they nominated.
I think OutKast winning right now is a product of that statement. I'm assuming most of the viewership of the pod is 18-30ish. If your middle school and high school were between like 96-08 there's a really good chance OutKast was played at every dance and every house party you went to. A new Outkast video on MTV was talked about the next day at school. Clique-wise basically EVERYONE listened OutKast. OutKast was serious business...
and then "Hey Ya!" came out.
@da business
This poll may not matter in the big picture to you, but for me this poll from beginning to end opened up my ears to a bunch of groups I never really noticed before. I'm from the part of Texas that'll sell out a low level country artist faster than if Tupac and Biggie came to life and put out a joined show. Or let me put it this way, I didn't even know BET was a channel until I went to visit my sister after she graduated and moved closer to Houston. Anyways, I just wanted to show some appreciation for this tournament and all the commenters that recommended some good songs along the way.
@ the end of the day, this poll/tournament doesn't mean a thing. I personally will take Outkast ova the Wu but, it's just my opinion. I'm 32 yrs old and I'm from the south, I related to Outkast a little more than the Wu. There is no need for this back and front debate. U like what u like period. I'm just glad that they made it this far and they're getting the shine that they deserve.
voltron
despite what some idiots have said the 2 best groups are right where they should be.
My vote is for the WU but can't get mad if outkast wins-musical diversity and longevity should matter when it comes to this. Also I personally count the wu solo joints when I think about their greatness as a group because everyone in the group is on everyone else's album. with rya producing they're pretty much wu albums featuring meth, ghost are etc. plus unlike NWA no one left the group after attaining solo success. in my opinion if you leave the group permanently then your albums shouldn't count.
the wu continue to form like volition....
@ Roc
Not counting Wu solo albums is ridiculous. At the very least you have to count the original 5 solo albums, they were all 100% produced by the RZA with fellow members spitting verses on almost every song.
All I know is that Supervillain_T Sucks big ones.
Don't wanna be THAT guy but I noticed on here a couple times people said Jalen said this would be who comes in second to Wu. Jalen didn't say that. That's been Jacoby since day one.
I don't think you can consider the Wu solo projects as part of their catalog because they weren't technically packaged and sold as Wu albums but instead as GZA, Rae, Ghost, etc project. Unlike Speakerboxxx/Love Below which despite basically being two solo albums sold as one, is still marketed and presented as an Outkast album.Overall I like both groups but I find that people overrate Wu, yes Enter 36 Chambers was great but after that they never fully lived up to the potential they promised with that first album.
Outkast has my vote purely on product. Combine both group's discography and rank them and I think Outkast has 3 of the top 4 albums, with Stankonia, ATLiens and Aquemeni (all classics) beating out mostly everything Wu has produced. People talk about longevity but look at the hype that was created this summer when Outkast announced a reunion tour, and this has been a whole decade since producing any new music.
I never got why Jalen said this bracket was basically to decide "who was going to lose to Wu in the finals", I thought they probably should have lost to NWA (if you want to talk about impact NWA is second to only Run DMC, and thats debatable).
@Bubba. Word. West is totally underrepresented; and even worse one of their representatives was Cypress Hill. How could there be no Thug Life??? Only one album, but what a stellar one it was! "Pour Out a Lil Liquor" is my vote for best 2Pac track ever. Not that they would make my championship matchup, but definitely at least the elite 8.
I'll frankly ignore anything past Aquemeni and still vote Outkast (although Speakerboxxx/The Love Below was hot). Love me some Wu - but ATLiens/Aquemeni were just Earth shaking.
@Supervillain_T You keep saying that Outkast is winning because of popularity but last time I checked Drake made a song called Wu-Tang Forever that had all of these teenage white girls wearing Wu-Wear. Wu-Tang easily has the most recognizable logo out of any hip-hop artist so let's just stay focused on the music and that is where Outkast is just simply better I love the Wu but there group albums just don't have that same feeling after 36 chambers and like I stated before this is about GROUPS TICAL CUBAN LINX LIQUID SWORDS RETURN TO 36 DON'T COUNT! I do agree with you on this tournament's east coast bias only having 4 groups from the West is a damn shame
I don't think Outkast is superior to the Wu but I am fine with them winning. They had the good fortune of coming up in an era where it was finally uncool in most areas to say you disliked rap but their material would still be quality in any decade. If people want to complain about recency bias I think Public Enemy losing to Black Star is the easier way to make a point.
These are the top groups, and I'm glad the people got this right. I won't be mad if either win, but Outkast is the greatest group of all-time, and their 2 seed was a joke.
Outkast is only the 10th best group in this tournament. Wu Tang is just the 5th best. Throw in Thug Life and Arrested Development (both of whom were egregiously snubbed), and Outakst falls to 12 and Wu to 6.
Cypress Hill and Three 6 Mafia still fall somewhere in the #100-plus range, trailing most high-school trios doing open mic night at an 18-and-over club.
@Damien, @Tyreke: right on!
@Mount Latono, @ Bubba: you're just stupid.
@Bosna: I agree that neither group is in my Top 2. But both are still good. Obviously the majority is never right. That's why weed and same-sex marriage are illegal, yet owning assault rifles and capital punishment are fine according to the law. People are stupid. But I feel somewhat positive about humanity seeing Wu in these finals: not a big over-marketed radio commodity and a downright great rap group. The sad thing is that we all know Outkast is going to win (again, not that they are bad), because (1) they are pretty much the only "rap group" that the 25-and-under crowd are aware of and (2) they are definitely the most radio-friendly and mass-marketed group ever. And mass-marketing gears toward people with the most simplistic tastes, not those of us with artistic sentiments. And, as I said before, most people are stupid.
haha im so ready to see Jalen flipping out when Outkast wins this
If we're counting Wu solo albums I don't think this is a contest. 36 Chambers, Liquid Swords, Cuban Linx, Tical, and Supreme Clientele far outweigh the 5 best Outkast albums. Definitely the two best groups though.
It's been stated but I'll say it again: Aquemini, by OutKast, is the album to start with if you aren't familiar with them.
About timing:
Wu started in 1992; OutKast started in 1993. All discussions about generational differences are moot.
The only difference between the two is growth. Wu has stayed with the same format and brand of music throughout their still existing career; even 'till this day.
In comparison, each OutKast album is sonically different from the previous. Completely different. And that is why six different people can claim a different album as their favorite. Growth is what allows OutKast the opportunity to appeal music lovers of varying tastes. Including Wu Tang's own, Raekwon, who made an appearance on the album, Aquemini.
Outkast is better than Wu-Tang the only Wu album that is classic all the way through is Enter 36 Chambers Kast has ATLiens Aquemini and Stankonia 3 classics IN A ROW you can listen to those 3 albums back to back with out skipping one track and this is a bracket about GROUPS so the Wu solo albums don't count no matter how great any of them were if that were the case then you would have to count The Chronic and Death Certificate for NWA and that just makes this whole thing confusing so in conclusion out of all the rappers involved in this entire bracket 3 stacks is the best hands down just listen to Aquemini
I hate people trying to make this a race thing. OutKast is only for white college boys? I've seen more poser white hipster girls wearing Wu shirts than any other rapper/rap group. And people arguing that OutKast is pop music? They obviously haven't sat down and listened to Millennium or Babylon or Aquemini or Da Art of STorytellin' (Part 2).
Wu Tang may be forever, but as they say in Aquemini: "Nothin' is for sure nothin' is for certain nothin' lasts forever, But until they close the curtain, it's him and I, Aquemini."
To have either of these groups in the finals is a joke... Wu Tang is the cheesiest group ever, and outkast is only here because of the mainstream hits they had for the younger generation.. Joke of a bracket, not gonna vite for either
My bad on that then Patrick, you're right. It wasn't on the Wu-Tang wiki page, and I searched on the net for any Grammy wins and I didn't find that one. I stand corrected on that statement.
Sick finals matchup. Either one is worthy if the win.
I know Grammy awards can't choose a winner but if you're going to use them at least be correct. Meth won with Mary J.
I also think that any one who thinks Meth couldn't carry a whole album needs a head shake. He is one of the greatest. Tical is like an hour and a half long and every song is awesome.
Aquemini puts Outkast over the top, imo, but 36 Chambers is just as good if not better. Glad these two are in the final, love for Quest as well.
Wu-Tang just has too many classics; they have more classics than Outkast has releases. To be slightly more thorough I will list what I mean (also to leave room for any correction if I am wrong).
Outkast:
Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik
ATLeans
Aquemini
Stankonia
Speakerboxxx/Love Below
Idlewild
Wu-Tang (I personally believe the solo projects should be counted as they all had the Wu-Tang brand):
Enter the 36 Chambers
Liquid Swords
Ironman
Only Built 4 Cuban Linx
Tical
Supreme Clientele
The W
Return to the 36 Chambers
I just want to throw in the Fishscale reached #2 rap/hip-hop album of 2006 (#4 overall), and so did Only Built 4 Cuban Linx 2 in 2009. Let's also keep in mind that "Hey Ya!" was released in 2003 (Idlewild did peak at #2 overall in 2006 though). Wu-Tang's 1st release was also ~1 year before Outkast's. The RZA also just released a movie, and was doing the Afro Samurai shit too.
I really don't see an argument for Outkast here outside of singles charts (Hey Ya! carried that double album), and I love Outkast from Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik, ATLiens, and all that (except I'm not a blind fanboy....Idlewild was not very good). Since the Wu members liked to tell stories in their albums...they didn't really have that many captivating singles, plus their hey-day was in the "golden age" of rap. I could be biased in the culture aspect (I'm from NYC), but for me Wu put a mark down on Hip-Hop for everyone at the time (only feature on Ready to Die is Method Man, even he gave a big shout).
I definitely want Wu Tang Clan to win, but I'm very happy that this is as close as it is compared to a lot of the other matchups.
@SMAC
I think you're off point with the Method Man argument. He certainly got them a lot of exposure and was an integral member, but without RZA, GZA, Ghost, or Raekwon, you could make the same argument for how much their absence would affect the quality of the music (RZA most importantly, since he set the background for the tracks). I think this is proven by Tical not holding up well against Liquid Swords or Cuban Linx, the other dudes could carry an entire album better than him.
In fact, to me when you look at the debate the best comparison might be Michael Vick vs. Joe Montana.
Its really a shame NWA isnt in the finals...
Mike, obviously everyone is going to vote according to favorites, but if you're going to analyze "best" hip-hop group, how else are you going to do it? This bracket will end up determining who everyone's favorite is.
It's just like any GOAT debate in sports. Some people say Jim Brown, or Barry Sanders. Others say Walter Payton or Gale Sayers. Other people might argue that it's Emmit Smith. Everyone has their favorites. There are a bunch of people who will argue the metrics, All-pros, MVPs, rings, stats, it all goes into it.
If you frame the debate that way, to me it's like Steve Young (Wu) vs. Joe Montana (Outkast). Montana owns the stats and the rings, has the longevity to back it up. Steve Young was amazing in his own right but the longevity and the stats aren't as good. Both are amazing choices, but one of them has the objective numbers to back up the subjective love.
To be honest, Wu Tang is really like Chris Johnson to me. He came out and blew up, and then fell off. That's how I honestly see Wu, but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I find pretty much all post-99 Wu Tang to be disappointing.
Jack you're way off base here. There's nothing objective about 'what's your favorite hip hop group?' It's an inherently subjective question. Trying to bring objectivity into in it in the way of album sales or award nominations is just foolish.
@Phart:
1st 3 outkast albums are great. But if you want THE best album and one of the greatest HipHop albums ever, that's Aquemini. Somany awesome tracks. Basically, each track on that album is great.
peace
Phart - Go listen to their first 4 albums on Spotify right now.
Southernplayalisticcadillacmuzik, ATLiens, Aquemini, Stankonia.
Supervillain, it is a matter of taste. Outkast's success has nothing to do with them being "pop" at all. Just like Wu's greatness has nothing to do with them being underground. They are on polar opposites of the style spectrum, but they have even collaborated together.
Anyone dismissing Outkast as "fast food" or "pop" is just ignorant of how good they are. It is two excellent emcees putting out consistently high-level production and great lyrical content across 13 years of albums.
Also, your categorization of Outkast as fast food perplexes me, because a grimy beat with like 3 samples and emcees spitting about killing people and doing drugs seems more fast food to me than something with elaborate production and thoughtful subject matter. Maybe Hey Ya is fast food, but even Hey Ya has deeper subject matter than Triumph.
i honestly didn't know that outkast was considered hip hop by fans until this bracket. the only tracks i've heard are sing-songy, disposable pop. please recommend an album for an old fart. i'll give them a chance.
Outkast is a great group but Wu Tang is FOREVER.
PS IF U AREGUE SALES THEN DRAKE BETTER THAN WU AND YOU KNOW THAT SHIT AINT TRUE
OUTKAST FOR WHITE BOYS IN COLLEGE WHO LIKE "HIP HOP" AND DEAVE MATTHEW. THE WU IS FOREVER.
I hate it when people bring up Grammy nominations to argue a group's greatness when every year the Grammys prove how little they really know about real hip hop. If you wanna argue album sales, I guess that's a justifiable factor, but please kill all this Grammy talk!
First off, props to Jalen and Jacoby for igniting a conversation that is long over do. The extinction of the "rap group" is a topic that needs much attention. With that said, shout out to all those hip hop heads who took part in voting and being apart of the discussion and debate. Though this question is not quite that easy to answer, my vote has to go to the greatest rap group all-time and prob the most underrated…OUTKAST. Although WU is great in their own right and def one of the best ever, their collection of talent cannot hide the fact when it comes down to it, much of their success and popularity is attributed to Method Man and "the name", a point even Bill Simmons was right to bring up. Take Method Man away from WU, and I think WU would be ranked considerably lower, like taking Mike away from the Jackson 5, leaving people to ask "…Just how great really is Tito, Marlin, Jermaine and Jackie???"…incredible considering the number of members in the group. I have always been one of those that have said since day one, Andre is one of thee top 5 greatest rappers of all-time! hands down! In addition, all things even, WU minus Meth and OUTKAST minus Andre, OUTKAST would still be greater. Big Boi, aka "Scottie Pippen" would still be able to take out the remaining members of WU on a solo album. Talk has been the movement created created by WU, but what about that of OUTKAST….aside from the fact they have been more acclaimed then WU, they helped spawn a southern and some might say even a midwest movement. From Goodie Mob, to Cash Money and even grammy winning 3-6 Mafia, OUTKAST has influenced the genre arguably more then any.
I still see people go to US and come back with Wu Tang tshirts and vinyls and stuff like that (i'm from europe). I still see people listening to WU and ATCQ. Like i said before, i've never, EVER heard ANYTHING about Outkast. Never. It's NON EXISTENT outside US Billboard top 100 chart.
OutKast is the greatest group of ALL-TIME.......nuff said
@Jack
Your arguments actually point to the exact reason that Outkast should NOT win. Radio music is shit; it is catered to the artistically-devoid, mentally-deficient members of society. And all awards shows are just absurd--governed by politics and old white dudes. (Seriously, you can count the number of deserving "best picture" Oscar winners on one hand.)
I think Outkast is OK. Definitely one of the better 3rd coast hiphop acts. But that's like saying McNuggets are pretty good for fast food. Southern rap is like fast food: gluttonously digested by people that wouldn't know refined taste if it kicked them in the ass. And since most people are stupid, it is the kind of music that is popular on the radio to this day. (Again, I will say Outkast is somewhat of an exception. It is not total trash like the Lil Waynes and Lil Johns of the genre.) But real connoisseurs of hip-hop (and music/art in general) recognize that the true gems are not so frivolously distributed. The true greats like Wu, NWA, Tribe, etc. may make a mainstream hit or two to sucker some money out of the mindless masses that listen to whatever the radio dictates, but their true complex flavors are too rich to be experienced in that cheap carnival setting.
Disclaimer: I'm just putting all this out there for discussion's sake. Great to go through these names and rediscover some excellent work. Much love to all the heads out there voting on these matchups.
I don't wanna harp on it, but a little close look: Outkast has won Rap Performance/Duo thrice (once was Urban or something), Rap Album twice, and an overall Best Album.
Best Rap Album wasn't even a category until 1996, well after Wu's first and many of that first round of solo records. So Outkast still obviously "wins" the awards stat, but a full 1/3 of their Grammys were from a category that did not exist for (arguably) some of the best Wu content. I could be a bit off on some of these dates, I'm going from memory.
My vote still goes for Wu. Numbers/metrics can't be everything; you can get into dangerous territory comparing bands based purely on numbers i.e. REM vs. U2.....85M and 3/14 (wins/nominations) against 150M and 22/???. Does that make U2 a better band by a huge margin? Totally subjective regardless of the gap in awards. (I tried to think of comparable-ish bands, not just something ridiculous like "Nickelback vs. Weezer" or something ridiculous.)
Joey - Agreed but we only have so many measurements. Awards, Charts, Sales. Outkast is head and shoulders above Wu in all of those categories. And not just the pop charts. Outkast has consistently done better on the R&B and Rap charts as well. The metrics may be limited but my any metric, Outkast is superior.
Because the Grammy's have such a great finger on the pulse of what's good. Case in point: Wu Tang having 1 nomination.
Skewed statistic because the Grammys are by definition subjective.
And I even mentioned the golden period of 93-97 for Wu, which definitely includes some amazing solo albums and two great group album. But the real fact is that each Outkast album has outperformed every one of those albums in every metric imaginable.
I'll just repeat again that Outkast outsold the entire Wu-Tang studio album catalog with 6 albums. Every Group album and every solo album COMBINED has not sold as much as the 6 Outkast studio albums.
Patricio
Objectively means that the 6 Outkast studio albums have outsold every Wu album INCLUDING solos.
Objectively means that Outkast have 6 Grammys and 17 nominations to Wu's 0 with 1 nomination.
Objectively means that Outkast has charted consistently way higher than ANY Wu album or single.
Those are objective measurements of success of an artist.
SUBJECTIVELY, you can claim that Wu Tang is better beacause you have the right to your opinion, but by every metric we have for measuring an artist's success OBJECTIVELY, Outkast destroys Wu.
Come on outkast
"Objectively though, there is no comparison. Outkast is GOAT."
Objectively...You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
If you're counting Speakerboxxx/The Love Below as an Outkast album, you almost have to allow Wu solo albums to be factored into your "metrics." S/TLB is obviously a set of two solo albums packaged together. With the Wu solo work, even if they don't have the sales #s over Outkast still, they blow everyone else out of the water. That first series of Wu solo was unprecedented, and there have been even more great solo records since then.
Dr. Shabazz, hey its a sports bracket applied to hip-hop. If you judge it like you would any great athlete or team, Outkast wins handily. Its a joke. But I get you, the cultural impact of Wu in that 93-97 time frame was huge. I love them too. Objectively though, there is no comparison. Outkast is the GOAT.
Jack, i dont think your metrics applies here. Its about WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT, AND WHAT THE PEOPLE NEED!!!
I take it we're considering solo efforts as well...if so, Wu should easily win this. I'm not mad these are the final two but I just know its gonna come down to regional tastes. People from a certain part of the map are gonna vote accordingly.
As a sports fan, looking at it by the numbers, it is obvious that Outkast is the winner in every possible metric. The fact that the race is even viewed as close is the laughable matter here. I'll break it down stat-for-stat because I'm a sports fan and this is what I do.:
Album Charts:
Outkast's debut Album hit #20 on the charts, after that they racked up one #1 and FOUR #2 albums on the US Chart (Three #1s and Three #2s on the R&B Charts overall).
Wu Tang's group albums which debuted at #41, then they came with one #1 and one #5. After that it's been #32 and #25. Not as strong.
Singles Charts:
The highest Wu-tang single ever on the US chart was CREAM at #60. Outkast has charted higher than this with ELEVEN different singles, with three #1 singles. Not even close. On the rap chart, the highest Wu has attained was #6 with Triumph. Outkast has been #5 or higher on the rap chart 5 different times, with four #1s. Again even on the RAP charts, Outkast dominates.
Album Sales:
Every album Outkast has released as gone Platinum. Their double album went Diamond (11x platinum), Overall, their 6 studio albums have gone 21x platinum
Wu has gone platinum on 3 Releases, with one gold and 8 Diagrams only selling 220K for a total of 6x Platinum. Again Outkast dominates in this category. In fact, if you add up ALL of the sales of ALL of the individual Wu Members solo albums, Wu Tang's TOTAL sales in any form is about 15x Platinum. Ouch.
Awards:
Outkast have 6 grammy wins and 17 nominations. No one from the Wu-Tang Clan has ever won a Grammy, either solo or as a group. Collectively they have been nominated one time, for Wu-Tang Forever.
Cultural Impact:
Another big factor in how we typically rate athletes is this factor. People like Terrell Davis or Bo Jackson still resonate with us despite having a very short prime. In this aspect, I believe Wu is superior, and I think that nostalgia is a huge driving factor in the Wu support. Culturally Outkast was very important in their own right and had a unique style that had a great amount of influence. But Wu-Tang had that "holy s---" edge that really exploded. Method Man being dusted out in the Bring the Pain video along with the samurai sound effects and grimy production on RZA was just on a whole different level. I LOOOOOVE Wu, dont get me wrong, and to me in my childhood they made a huge, lasting impact.
Longevity:
Another common metric we use to evaluate our favorite athletes is longevity. Outkast really kills it in this area. They are Joe Montana or Tom Brady. They came on the scene hot, and then got BETTER and BETTER as their career kept going, through the finish, with Idlewild - their last studio album - still charting at #1 .
Wu on the other hand, really peaked with Wu-Tang forever. There were some solo albums that came afterwards that were good such as Tical 2000, but 36 chambers and Wu-Tang Forever are the heyday, along with Tical, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, Ironman and Liquid Swords all great albums in the time period. But even with this, their prime lasted around 4 years, while Outkast kept getting better and better over their 13-year period of studio albums.
So as I said in the beginning of this very-long-bordering-on-character-limit post, when you evaluate this like we would in the sports arena, Outkast is far and away the G.O.A.T. There is no question about it.
This is just PATHETIC. If Outkast wins my laugh will be heard on the fucking moon.