The auto industry is a vital component of our economy, and has contributed to our economic health for many decades now. It is worth saving, but perhaps not in its current state.
I would not throw any more taxpayer money at the industry per se. I would incent consumers to purchase NAFTA built vehicles through tax incentives, and I would encourage the US government to do the same. This would stimulate production, and thus jobs within NAFTA.
With respect to pensions, although I feel sorry for the CAW pensioners, I would not compensate them. They have access to health care and prescriptions just like all citizens, it will simply not be the gold plated plan they have today. That plan was simply not sustainable, and like most pension plans today, the markets have cut them in half. ( the fact that CAW workers in Ontario have not been making direct payments for some years speaks to the disconnect to reality).
Auto workers face a tough future. It is not clear which companies will survive. Ontario benefits from the auto industry. I believe that the companies need to realistically scale back their operating costs (including wages and benefits) and focus on producing products that consumers will purchase.
Although I have purchased foreign on my past 2 purchases, my family has committed to buying NAFTA the next time around.
MY - 15 years ago
I'm all for letting the big three sink. Stew in their mishaps. But I've got bigger issues with the people who work in finances. They're the real thieves, deceitful and only out for themselves. They're scum.
Mary - 15 years ago
Since the automakers have never stopped the farmers from going bankrupt, why should the farmers now help out the automakers? As John Rich says in his song "In the Real World they're shuttin' Detroit down" Let's just let nature take it's course - all other businesses have had to live with the decisions they've made - why don't these companies? The companies and unions have inflated everything in their industry to the point that it's now going to collapse in on itself and we, the average person, have to bail them out? I think not!!
sirpatrick - 15 years ago
Based on these comments the first thing the "Big 3" needs to do is close any of their Canadian based manufacturing plants....
Mars - 15 years ago
What have they ever done for themselves?? the manufacturreres-didn't want to look into the future--if they had they wouldn't be in this mess- Besides-- it's the unions in this country that are bringing it to it's knees. It's time we went back to free enterprize & each business fend for themselves-- hire whom they wish-- pay decent wages-- not outrageous ones--this will bring the country out of the doldrums. Workers have to realize that you live within your means & save for the future-- can't have what you want--when you want-then ask the tax payer to pay for your heavy spending!. We've never worked for benifits etc.-- always had to see to them-on our own-- so if they get bailed out by Government-- it still won't be enough- they'll keep coming back for more--the unions---- i n the work place-their needs to be some common sense introduced. As long as we let unions run the country-- nothing will change--socializem is the culpert-- have to get rid of it!!!!!
Hobby - 15 years ago
Netty has it right. Give enough support to save a REALISTIC pension, have strict limits on executive salaries & perks, encourage R&D into new auto technology (Canadian!), and preserve a major industry with layers of spin-off small businesses relating to auto mfr.
netty - 15 years ago
We did not get gold plated pensions. Some of us worked for over 30 yrs. for the auto companies and contributed to our pension plans. It is the unions with their big demands for more benefits, more money for the hourly workers that hurt the Big Three. I personally know of hourly workers who earned more income in a year than lower level salaried people. The CEO of the unions are not hurting now or were they when there were strikes. They were still getting their big salaries and bonus. We have been having cutbacks for the past two years on our benefits that we paid into and worked hard for.
The Big Three also contributed millions of dollars in aid after 911. They have also done alot for Canada. Supporting the arts, sports etc.
Its odd how people forget all the good points! There are thousands of people and small businesses that are affected by this crisis with the car industry right now.
It isn't only the Big Three that will go down. We are all interdependent upon each other whether we like it or not. So lets try to be positive and help each other and find some way out of this crisis instead of being so negative toward a big corporation.
Jad - 15 years ago
@Vern
"When the autoworkers give up their SPA DAYS, LEGAL FEES, AND PAY SOMETHING INTO THEIR GOLD-PLATED PENSIONS,"
Are you serious? No wonder they are crying out so loud.
Jad - 15 years ago
It is solely responsibility of big american oil companies to help Big Three recover.
But they are soooooooo quiet now, guilt feeling I bet.
They killed electric car. And, stealerships should all close down, they are biggest rip off factory in N.America.
Vern - 15 years ago
When the autoworkers give up their SPA DAYS, LEGAL FEES, AND PAY SOMETHING INTO THEIR GOLD-PLATED PENSIONS, then maybe the taxpayers of Canada can think of helping save the auto companies. Until then, let the auto companies go into chapter 11 (USA) and its equivilant in Canada and the auto workers can get down to the reality that all other working people have in Canada. Who do they think they are? Government employees????
cliff - 15 years ago
I knew the U.S.A. was in for continuing trouble as soon as Obama stated his priorities were to create jobs and keep people in their homes in the context of resolving the financial crisis. Although that may sound harmless enough what it really means is that social objectives are to be the tail wagging the financial dog. Governmental picking of winners as candidates for their largess is in reality a "bait and switch" subsidy of mediocre and poor performers. Sadly, socially-motivated subsidies for numerous badly managed financial and car (and now insurance) companies allows them to continue selling their shoddy products, rather than being culled by the market. In a less government-intrusive world, poorly performing businesses are simply allowed to fail, as they should -- any valuable assets picked up at bargain prices by businesses which were well and prudently managed. And Canada has a long and inglorious history of throwing money at losers for shallow political notions. So here we go again, throwing money at GM and Chrysler like a gambling addict in a casino. But unlike the gambler, the politicians don't seem to know that ultimately there will be nothing to show for all that money. And meanwhile companies which have been managing themselves well are losing business due to the confusion and being forced to compete with subsidized losers. And worst, it is we taxpayers who have to pay the price for all this misguided government meddling.
The Canadian auto industry is ultimately dependent upon what the Obama U.S. government determines is in the best interests of the American economy. For Canada to not only come out of this recession health, but strong, we need to have our own ducks in a very straight tight line, capable of not only competing with whatever the Americans deem is the way to go, but to be a strong partner if not leader in the "new auto industry" Obviously, up until this point in time, as Ontario goes, so goes the nation! B.C. has its own economy as does Alberta, Sask. and an emerging Newfoundland/Labrador. Our basket case provinces, lead by the maritimes and Quebec, will always be operating their economies with their hands stretched way out to the "have" provinces. We can't create a situation where Ontario permanently crosses the line into the have not league. This means that we must continue to support our auto industry as long and to whatever financial extent is necessary to ensure it will not only survive but be a leader and succeed in an enhanced state. This will all pass! It just a question of how long it is going to take. If all of the economic indicates prior to the hysteria of the "great recession" as to the strength and comparative strength of the Canadian economy in comparison to other developed countries was accurate, then we can absorb the financial deficits that will be created by supporting the auto industry until they can handle the new reality on their own. In which case, we will assist them in their ultimate obligation to repay all of the financial assistance the Canadian taxpayers will have given them. Have faith folks, we will turn the corner. Now is not the time to tie an anchor to the legs of the Canadian auto industry. Enough of the bitching about the Conservative government stepping away from pure right wing economic policies. What was done, was done for a specific reason, i.e. to protect the future of the Canadian auto industry from being sucked back into the U.S.A. We have gone down the road with signs that tell us how to get to the end of the trail, we can't now take a different fork and expect that we will get to the same end that was mapped out in the first place.
sandy - 15 years ago
The big three will sink or swim based on decisions made in the US. Canada should do very little to help until it is clear what their US masters plan to do with the big three. Until then no matter what Canada does it will be a wasted effort if the US companies go into bankruptcy.
Patience Canada, your time to act may come.
majorpappy - 15 years ago
Would GM & CAW's Ken Lewenza contribute to my pension plan. As a small business person, I am one of the many hundreds of thousands without any fallback in tough times. If the Federal Government and the Province of Ontario were serious about saving the economy, they would have provided GST & PST relief on the purchase of a new vehicle. Are they really that stupid?
Your answer...
Carl - 15 years ago
And it's our own fault for asking the big three automakers to build us big gas guzzling cars. On the other hand he don't always give kids what they want, you have to teach them responsibility. By giving them free money, we are just teaching them to suck up the public trough.
Mr. Canada - 15 years ago
It serves the big three right for making big, gas guzzlers. If they had made eco-friendly cars before the reccesion htey might have stood a chance. NOw, its too late.
Paul - 15 years ago
Having government save car companies is like having heroin addicts loan money to drunks.
The drinking doesn't stop, and the junkie just needs to go steal some more money.
Hey, let's do it big time, true democratic style. Have everyone freely donate money. That will show the desire and the popularity. Right? Right? (insert cricket sounds, here)
Sam - 15 years ago
I believe that the wheels that govern the automobile industry are flat, and to save whatever economic balance is from careening off the road into a lampost we need to take the keys away from the drunk driving government officials that think they know how to drive. We should stop supporting unsustainable business and government spending. As badly as i really really want to stick the debt to my children for all the headaches they've given me, I'd rather do the right thing and not sell my kids into tax slavery so that Ernie can keep his $35/hour job tightening bolts at the Dodge Caravan Factory. I wish i could insert more hokey colloquilisms about the automobiles into this to make it more witty, but i just don't have the drive. HA! one last one.
af - 15 years ago
I believe that the wheels that govern the automobile industry must be saved in order to maintain the economic balance of that industry in the western sphere or we'll become a continent of buyers; contributing not to stability, but contribute to imbalance. We should not allow ourselves to be the bedroom community of the global economy. We should be the engine. We should also stop the insane bonus payments that contribute to the higher cost of our automobiles. Why in this world does one need all of those absurd millions of dollars a year!? I think we need to put a ceiling on such payments.
The auto industry is a vital component of our economy, and has contributed to our economic health for many decades now. It is worth saving, but perhaps not in its current state.
I would not throw any more taxpayer money at the industry per se. I would incent consumers to purchase NAFTA built vehicles through tax incentives, and I would encourage the US government to do the same. This would stimulate production, and thus jobs within NAFTA.
With respect to pensions, although I feel sorry for the CAW pensioners, I would not compensate them. They have access to health care and prescriptions just like all citizens, it will simply not be the gold plated plan they have today. That plan was simply not sustainable, and like most pension plans today, the markets have cut them in half. ( the fact that CAW workers in Ontario have not been making direct payments for some years speaks to the disconnect to reality).
Auto workers face a tough future. It is not clear which companies will survive. Ontario benefits from the auto industry. I believe that the companies need to realistically scale back their operating costs (including wages and benefits) and focus on producing products that consumers will purchase.
Although I have purchased foreign on my past 2 purchases, my family has committed to buying NAFTA the next time around.
I'm all for letting the big three sink. Stew in their mishaps. But I've got bigger issues with the people who work in finances. They're the real thieves, deceitful and only out for themselves. They're scum.
Since the automakers have never stopped the farmers from going bankrupt, why should the farmers now help out the automakers? As John Rich says in his song "In the Real World they're shuttin' Detroit down" Let's just let nature take it's course - all other businesses have had to live with the decisions they've made - why don't these companies? The companies and unions have inflated everything in their industry to the point that it's now going to collapse in on itself and we, the average person, have to bail them out? I think not!!
Based on these comments the first thing the "Big 3" needs to do is close any of their Canadian based manufacturing plants....
What have they ever done for themselves?? the manufacturreres-didn't want to look into the future--if they had they wouldn't be in this mess- Besides-- it's the unions in this country that are bringing it to it's knees. It's time we went back to free enterprize & each business fend for themselves-- hire whom they wish-- pay decent wages-- not outrageous ones--this will bring the country out of the doldrums. Workers have to realize that you live within your means & save for the future-- can't have what you want--when you want-then ask the tax payer to pay for your heavy spending!. We've never worked for benifits etc.-- always had to see to them-on our own-- so if they get bailed out by Government-- it still won't be enough- they'll keep coming back for more--the unions---- i n the work place-their needs to be some common sense introduced. As long as we let unions run the country-- nothing will change--socializem is the culpert-- have to get rid of it!!!!!
Netty has it right. Give enough support to save a REALISTIC pension, have strict limits on executive salaries & perks, encourage R&D into new auto technology (Canadian!), and preserve a major industry with layers of spin-off small businesses relating to auto mfr.
We did not get gold plated pensions. Some of us worked for over 30 yrs. for the auto companies and contributed to our pension plans. It is the unions with their big demands for more benefits, more money for the hourly workers that hurt the Big Three. I personally know of hourly workers who earned more income in a year than lower level salaried people. The CEO of the unions are not hurting now or were they when there were strikes. They were still getting their big salaries and bonus. We have been having cutbacks for the past two years on our benefits that we paid into and worked hard for.
The Big Three also contributed millions of dollars in aid after 911. They have also done alot for Canada. Supporting the arts, sports etc.
Its odd how people forget all the good points! There are thousands of people and small businesses that are affected by this crisis with the car industry right now.
It isn't only the Big Three that will go down. We are all interdependent upon each other whether we like it or not. So lets try to be positive and help each other and find some way out of this crisis instead of being so negative toward a big corporation.
@Vern
"When the autoworkers give up their SPA DAYS, LEGAL FEES, AND PAY SOMETHING INTO THEIR GOLD-PLATED PENSIONS,"
Are you serious? No wonder they are crying out so loud.
It is solely responsibility of big american oil companies to help Big Three recover.
But they are soooooooo quiet now, guilt feeling I bet.
They killed electric car. And, stealerships should all close down, they are biggest rip off factory in N.America.
When the autoworkers give up their SPA DAYS, LEGAL FEES, AND PAY SOMETHING INTO THEIR GOLD-PLATED PENSIONS, then maybe the taxpayers of Canada can think of helping save the auto companies. Until then, let the auto companies go into chapter 11 (USA) and its equivilant in Canada and the auto workers can get down to the reality that all other working people have in Canada. Who do they think they are? Government employees????
I knew the U.S.A. was in for continuing trouble as soon as Obama stated his priorities were to create jobs and keep people in their homes in the context of resolving the financial crisis. Although that may sound harmless enough what it really means is that social objectives are to be the tail wagging the financial dog. Governmental picking of winners as candidates for their largess is in reality a "bait and switch" subsidy of mediocre and poor performers. Sadly, socially-motivated subsidies for numerous badly managed financial and car (and now insurance) companies allows them to continue selling their shoddy products, rather than being culled by the market. In a less government-intrusive world, poorly performing businesses are simply allowed to fail, as they should -- any valuable assets picked up at bargain prices by businesses which were well and prudently managed. And Canada has a long and inglorious history of throwing money at losers for shallow political notions. So here we go again, throwing money at GM and Chrysler like a gambling addict in a casino. But unlike the gambler, the politicians don't seem to know that ultimately there will be nothing to show for all that money. And meanwhile companies which have been managing themselves well are losing business due to the confusion and being forced to compete with subsidized losers. And worst, it is we taxpayers who have to pay the price for all this misguided government meddling.
The Canadian auto industry is ultimately dependent upon what the Obama U.S. government determines is in the best interests of the American economy. For Canada to not only come out of this recession health, but strong, we need to have our own ducks in a very straight tight line, capable of not only competing with whatever the Americans deem is the way to go, but to be a strong partner if not leader in the "new auto industry" Obviously, up until this point in time, as Ontario goes, so goes the nation! B.C. has its own economy as does Alberta, Sask. and an emerging Newfoundland/Labrador. Our basket case provinces, lead by the maritimes and Quebec, will always be operating their economies with their hands stretched way out to the "have" provinces. We can't create a situation where Ontario permanently crosses the line into the have not league. This means that we must continue to support our auto industry as long and to whatever financial extent is necessary to ensure it will not only survive but be a leader and succeed in an enhanced state. This will all pass! It just a question of how long it is going to take. If all of the economic indicates prior to the hysteria of the "great recession" as to the strength and comparative strength of the Canadian economy in comparison to other developed countries was accurate, then we can absorb the financial deficits that will be created by supporting the auto industry until they can handle the new reality on their own. In which case, we will assist them in their ultimate obligation to repay all of the financial assistance the Canadian taxpayers will have given them. Have faith folks, we will turn the corner. Now is not the time to tie an anchor to the legs of the Canadian auto industry. Enough of the bitching about the Conservative government stepping away from pure right wing economic policies. What was done, was done for a specific reason, i.e. to protect the future of the Canadian auto industry from being sucked back into the U.S.A. We have gone down the road with signs that tell us how to get to the end of the trail, we can't now take a different fork and expect that we will get to the same end that was mapped out in the first place.
The big three will sink or swim based on decisions made in the US. Canada should do very little to help until it is clear what their US masters plan to do with the big three. Until then no matter what Canada does it will be a wasted effort if the US companies go into bankruptcy.
Patience Canada, your time to act may come.
Would GM & CAW's Ken Lewenza contribute to my pension plan. As a small business person, I am one of the many hundreds of thousands without any fallback in tough times. If the Federal Government and the Province of Ontario were serious about saving the economy, they would have provided GST & PST relief on the purchase of a new vehicle. Are they really that stupid?
Your answer...
And it's our own fault for asking the big three automakers to build us big gas guzzling cars. On the other hand he don't always give kids what they want, you have to teach them responsibility. By giving them free money, we are just teaching them to suck up the public trough.
It serves the big three right for making big, gas guzzlers. If they had made eco-friendly cars before the reccesion htey might have stood a chance. NOw, its too late.
Having government save car companies is like having heroin addicts loan money to drunks.
The drinking doesn't stop, and the junkie just needs to go steal some more money.
Hey, let's do it big time, true democratic style. Have everyone freely donate money. That will show the desire and the popularity. Right? Right? (insert cricket sounds, here)
I believe that the wheels that govern the automobile industry are flat, and to save whatever economic balance is from careening off the road into a lampost we need to take the keys away from the drunk driving government officials that think they know how to drive. We should stop supporting unsustainable business and government spending. As badly as i really really want to stick the debt to my children for all the headaches they've given me, I'd rather do the right thing and not sell my kids into tax slavery so that Ernie can keep his $35/hour job tightening bolts at the Dodge Caravan Factory. I wish i could insert more hokey colloquilisms about the automobiles into this to make it more witty, but i just don't have the drive. HA! one last one.
I believe that the wheels that govern the automobile industry must be saved in order to maintain the economic balance of that industry in the western sphere or we'll become a continent of buyers; contributing not to stability, but contribute to imbalance. We should not allow ourselves to be the bedroom community of the global economy. We should be the engine. We should also stop the insane bonus payments that contribute to the higher cost of our automobiles. Why in this world does one need all of those absurd millions of dollars a year!? I think we need to put a ceiling on such payments.