The point I am making about two deaths is while they are both unfortunate it is not an excessive enough number to make all these changes! You would spend billions and would cause immense traffic backups which would lead to more accidents if you did this at every intersection that has had two deaths in 11 or 12 years!
As I said before, unfortunately we all risk our lives when we drive because of either our mistake or some other persons mistake. That is just how it is and always will be. You can't fix mistakes.
That intersection DOES NOT have an immediate danger! As I said it has excellent sight lines in both directions. There is no more caution required there than at other intersections. In fact I know of many locally that require more caution.
That is not right to make trucks have to go all the way around either. They need to make deliveries etc. too.
THERE IS NO WAY THAT ROUTE 12 and Route 73 have the same traffic volume! I'm talking route 12 from the Alsace township line where it goes to one lane and the route 73 intersection at Breezy Corners. Those intersections in between are horrendous and I have seen many bad accidents at Rte. 12 and Elizabeth Ave. Even if they did have the same volume those intersections are still much worse.
From what I have been hearing and reading I think there is a very good chance that nothing will be done. The Oley and Ruscombmanor township supervisors recently came out and said they don't want to pay, the Oley Valley school board came out against it at their last meeting and the Oley Twnshp. police chief is against it.
If enough of us common sense silent majority show we are also against it or they keep fighting and can't agree on what should be done then the correct thing will happen and that will be NO changes!
This poll shows that overwhelmingly most people want NO change!
Jen - 13 years ago
Only two deaths - I am questioning the validity of your argument here. It does not aid your position when you rely on this unsteady point of contention. Who determines how many is too many? And your answer to this question would probably refer to the general consensus of opinion, but right now, I see the desensitization that is occurring, here in America, as people accept a certain status quo for a little while, but then, step by step, people begin to accept unimaginable things. I can objectively agree that perhaps two deaths are a small percentage compared to certain other statistics, but I am simply pointing out the problem with an attitude of flippancy. And although, I believe your post was intended to portray the former rather than the latter, I have seen quite a few people muddle through this discussion with a great amount of disrespect for the lives that were lost.
Underestimating immediate danger is one of the chief contributing factors in car accidents. Awareness is our primary defense. Refusing to acknowledge the Route 662 and 73 split as a dangerous intersection is the reason why we are sitting here discussing it in the first place. Drivers are not aware of the danger; therefore, they pull out in front of cars going 50-60 mph. And when I use the term "dangerous," I simply mean that much more caution is needed than typcially required. We can admit that this is a dangerous intersection in order to promote driver awareness without losing our argument to “leave it the way it is.” And yes, there are many other examples of far worse intersections, but I put forth a specific option for this particular intersection in question.
Truck traffic would not be directed through Oley. They would need to connect with Route 73 through Park Road in Fleetwood (off of 662) or Route 12 (Pricetown Road). But normal car traffic can easily use the small end section of Main Street and turn at King's.
Actually, traffic volume-wise Routes 12 and 73 are very similar. Route 12 simply seems more congested because the speed limit is only 40-45 mph whereas Route 73 (and the intersection in question) has a speed limit of 50-55 mph. Route 12 has many commuters who regularly turn off at several main roads (since the area is more populated and has more connecting roads than compared to the stretch of Route 73 from King’s to Breezy Corners), and these drivers turning off cause traffic to slow down even more. I also see Route 12 as having winding downhill roads, which cause drivers to brake and get clogged up more easily than the straight stretches of open road that Route 73 offers.
I personally believe that the individuals (who are championing the superfluous stop sign "solution") will never let the matter rest - I believe that PennDOT and other officials will be forced to make some kind of decision, and for us to go on ignoring that distinct possibility would be unfortunate. We can stand up for "leaving it the way it is," which is an acceptable response, but we must also be prepared to put forth practical solutions in order to counteract the ridiculous stop sign suggestion. I think that a yellow caution signal (similar to the Main Street/Route 73 intersection) would be an okay solution – not great, but not horrible either. I also think that white sign painting (on the road itself) would be another okay solution. Doing nothing is also another average “solution” – not entirely desirable, but still more desirable than a three-way stop sign.
Dave - 13 years ago
Yes only two deaths. That is not excessive actually. There are many intersections that are worse than this one and have had more deaths. Every time we drive anywhere we unfortunately risk our lives.
You would really cause major backups in the village of Oley with that extra traffic on Main street. It already backs up at the light in Oley by Weis during rush hour, especially when school is in.
The reason the highway's merge there at the west split is so that all that traffic doesn't travel on Main street. The idea was to take people onto the outskirts of the village - not in the middle of it. I'm sure the people on Main street don't want that extra truck traffic either.
I DO NOT acknowledge that this is a "dangerous" intersection! It has good sight lines both ways and Route 73 does not have that much traffic. It's traffic is nothing like on Route 12. Try getting onto Route 12 (Pricetown Road) at Elizabeth Ave. or some of the intersections there!
We can't change every intersection in the country because someone makes a mistake and is killed. It's time we realize the incident for what it is, take responsibility, leave the road as it is and get on with our lives.
Jen - 13 years ago
Only two deaths? We really need to rethink our consideration of human life. And no, I am not advocating excessive speed limit reductions, stop signs, or traffic lights. My ideal solution for this discussion strives to balance safety as well as practicality. The traffic on Route 73 outweighs the dangerous drivers who continue to pull out from 662. Route 73 commuters should not be obstructed or penalized as a result of this "dangerous intersection discussion," but I do believe that drivers have demonstrated an inability to safely turn from 662 onto 73.
I agree with you, Dave, for the most part. Safe and responsible driving is the absolute best answer. But surely we all realize the dangerous decision making that occurs as drivers attempt to turn onto a main thoroughfare like Route 73, and we can also acknowledge the fact that this particular intersection is problematic. Most of the drivers who are turning from 662 onto 73 refuse to wait until it is clear; and after all, inexperienced, aggressive, distracted, or just plain dumb drivers are unavoidable - especially when they pull out in front of you.
I disagree with the assumption that the solution I laid out would hurt businesses on Route 73. First of all, there are only a handful of businesses between Breezy Corners and Kings, and three of them are located 1000 feet from the King's traffic light. Second, the massive amount of traffic on Route 73 is contributing to this call for a traffic light (or stop sign) at the Route 73 and 662 split, so therefore, these businesses already have plenty of passersby, which use Route 73 everyday in order to commute to and from a number of different areas. Third, the two "detours" that I suggested are so minor in nature that I cannot imagine any individual being able to stay away from the smooth, refreshing, and delightful ice cream found at Jenn and Jesse's for any real length of time.
Dave - 13 years ago
How is an intersection that has only had two deaths in over a decade considered "dangerous"?!
With Jens plan someone who wants to go to Jenn and Jessie's restaurant or someones house or one of the other business's there on route 73 and is coming from route 662 would have to drive all the way into Oley and then double back onto rte. 73 or drive to Breezy Corners and come down 73. That makes no sense at all and would hurt any business's along that route. It would basically be like making a detour.
The ONLY plan that makes sense is doing nothing at all and leave things as they are!! This is not a dangerous intersection with those straight sightlines it has. Any intersection is dangerous when someone gets impatient and pulls out in front of someone!
Jen - 13 years ago
Unfortunately, this poll does not include two of the most logical solutions to the deadly Route 73 and 662 split. The easiest, safest, and most cost effective solutions: restrict these dangerous connecting roads to "one way traffic only," therefore, no longer permitting traffic from 662 to turn onto 73, and exclusively allowing drivers to bear off of Route 73 onto 662 - OR - shut down and completely close off these connecting roads. Drivers can simply turn at the traffic light by King's/Weis (Friedensburg Road and Route 73 Oley, Pa) and, in a mere 1000 feet, continue onto Main Street which directly turns into 662 - or - drivers can easily stay on Route 73 until they come to the following traffic light by the Redner's gas station (Route 12/Pricetown Road and Route 73) and turn there instead. Putting stop signs on Route 73 is madness. Tractor trailers will never be able to even reach 25 mph if they have to stop before the 1 mile hill up to Breezy Corners as well as their inability to stop coming from the other direction, down that very same hill, during icy weather or snowstorms - not to mention the unbelievable traffic back up that will result from ineffective, superfluous stop signs. In fact, it was failure to properly stop at reasonably posted stop signs that caused this particular intersection to be viewed as so incredibly dangerous in the first place.
Kathleen - 13 years ago
I am very sorry for Marc's family and anyone else who has been injured/killed here but people drive way too fast on that road and also people do not obey stop signs. Drivers must be responsible for their actions. Stop, look and don't trust turn signals. A stop sign/traffic light will increase rear end collisions plus people disregard them all the time. Watch a red light sometime: 3-4 cars go through the yellow/red light, they only slow down at stop signs if they even do that. Maybe more police action (and yes I know the police are busy) and heavier fines?? The real answer is for driver responsibility. I think people study for the test then forget the rules when they leave the driver center.
SLOW DOWN, BUCKLE UP AND OBEY THE RULES.
God Bless Marc's family.
jeff - 13 years ago
If a decision is made to do anything at the intersection, then it should be a light. Otherwise, leave it alone. Forget the stop signs,, that will make matters worse.
Kristine - 13 years ago
If they can install a light on 662 after the east split with 73 near Bertolet Mill Rd, Deturk Rd and Mine Lane, they can install a light where Marc was killed. This light was installed only for construction and I, along with many residents of Oley, are confused why the light is even being used.
The point I am making about two deaths is while they are both unfortunate it is not an excessive enough number to make all these changes! You would spend billions and would cause immense traffic backups which would lead to more accidents if you did this at every intersection that has had two deaths in 11 or 12 years!
As I said before, unfortunately we all risk our lives when we drive because of either our mistake or some other persons mistake. That is just how it is and always will be. You can't fix mistakes.
That intersection DOES NOT have an immediate danger! As I said it has excellent sight lines in both directions. There is no more caution required there than at other intersections. In fact I know of many locally that require more caution.
That is not right to make trucks have to go all the way around either. They need to make deliveries etc. too.
THERE IS NO WAY THAT ROUTE 12 and Route 73 have the same traffic volume! I'm talking route 12 from the Alsace township line where it goes to one lane and the route 73 intersection at Breezy Corners. Those intersections in between are horrendous and I have seen many bad accidents at Rte. 12 and Elizabeth Ave. Even if they did have the same volume those intersections are still much worse.
From what I have been hearing and reading I think there is a very good chance that nothing will be done. The Oley and Ruscombmanor township supervisors recently came out and said they don't want to pay, the Oley Valley school board came out against it at their last meeting and the Oley Twnshp. police chief is against it.
If enough of us common sense silent majority show we are also against it or they keep fighting and can't agree on what should be done then the correct thing will happen and that will be NO changes!
This poll shows that overwhelmingly most people want NO change!
Only two deaths - I am questioning the validity of your argument here. It does not aid your position when you rely on this unsteady point of contention. Who determines how many is too many? And your answer to this question would probably refer to the general consensus of opinion, but right now, I see the desensitization that is occurring, here in America, as people accept a certain status quo for a little while, but then, step by step, people begin to accept unimaginable things. I can objectively agree that perhaps two deaths are a small percentage compared to certain other statistics, but I am simply pointing out the problem with an attitude of flippancy. And although, I believe your post was intended to portray the former rather than the latter, I have seen quite a few people muddle through this discussion with a great amount of disrespect for the lives that were lost.
Underestimating immediate danger is one of the chief contributing factors in car accidents. Awareness is our primary defense. Refusing to acknowledge the Route 662 and 73 split as a dangerous intersection is the reason why we are sitting here discussing it in the first place. Drivers are not aware of the danger; therefore, they pull out in front of cars going 50-60 mph. And when I use the term "dangerous," I simply mean that much more caution is needed than typcially required. We can admit that this is a dangerous intersection in order to promote driver awareness without losing our argument to “leave it the way it is.” And yes, there are many other examples of far worse intersections, but I put forth a specific option for this particular intersection in question.
Truck traffic would not be directed through Oley. They would need to connect with Route 73 through Park Road in Fleetwood (off of 662) or Route 12 (Pricetown Road). But normal car traffic can easily use the small end section of Main Street and turn at King's.
Actually, traffic volume-wise Routes 12 and 73 are very similar. Route 12 simply seems more congested because the speed limit is only 40-45 mph whereas Route 73 (and the intersection in question) has a speed limit of 50-55 mph. Route 12 has many commuters who regularly turn off at several main roads (since the area is more populated and has more connecting roads than compared to the stretch of Route 73 from King’s to Breezy Corners), and these drivers turning off cause traffic to slow down even more. I also see Route 12 as having winding downhill roads, which cause drivers to brake and get clogged up more easily than the straight stretches of open road that Route 73 offers.
I personally believe that the individuals (who are championing the superfluous stop sign "solution") will never let the matter rest - I believe that PennDOT and other officials will be forced to make some kind of decision, and for us to go on ignoring that distinct possibility would be unfortunate. We can stand up for "leaving it the way it is," which is an acceptable response, but we must also be prepared to put forth practical solutions in order to counteract the ridiculous stop sign suggestion. I think that a yellow caution signal (similar to the Main Street/Route 73 intersection) would be an okay solution – not great, but not horrible either. I also think that white sign painting (on the road itself) would be another okay solution. Doing nothing is also another average “solution” – not entirely desirable, but still more desirable than a three-way stop sign.
Yes only two deaths. That is not excessive actually. There are many intersections that are worse than this one and have had more deaths. Every time we drive anywhere we unfortunately risk our lives.
You would really cause major backups in the village of Oley with that extra traffic on Main street. It already backs up at the light in Oley by Weis during rush hour, especially when school is in.
The reason the highway's merge there at the west split is so that all that traffic doesn't travel on Main street. The idea was to take people onto the outskirts of the village - not in the middle of it. I'm sure the people on Main street don't want that extra truck traffic either.
I DO NOT acknowledge that this is a "dangerous" intersection! It has good sight lines both ways and Route 73 does not have that much traffic. It's traffic is nothing like on Route 12. Try getting onto Route 12 (Pricetown Road) at Elizabeth Ave. or some of the intersections there!
We can't change every intersection in the country because someone makes a mistake and is killed. It's time we realize the incident for what it is, take responsibility, leave the road as it is and get on with our lives.
Only two deaths? We really need to rethink our consideration of human life. And no, I am not advocating excessive speed limit reductions, stop signs, or traffic lights. My ideal solution for this discussion strives to balance safety as well as practicality. The traffic on Route 73 outweighs the dangerous drivers who continue to pull out from 662. Route 73 commuters should not be obstructed or penalized as a result of this "dangerous intersection discussion," but I do believe that drivers have demonstrated an inability to safely turn from 662 onto 73.
I agree with you, Dave, for the most part. Safe and responsible driving is the absolute best answer. But surely we all realize the dangerous decision making that occurs as drivers attempt to turn onto a main thoroughfare like Route 73, and we can also acknowledge the fact that this particular intersection is problematic. Most of the drivers who are turning from 662 onto 73 refuse to wait until it is clear; and after all, inexperienced, aggressive, distracted, or just plain dumb drivers are unavoidable - especially when they pull out in front of you.
I disagree with the assumption that the solution I laid out would hurt businesses on Route 73. First of all, there are only a handful of businesses between Breezy Corners and Kings, and three of them are located 1000 feet from the King's traffic light. Second, the massive amount of traffic on Route 73 is contributing to this call for a traffic light (or stop sign) at the Route 73 and 662 split, so therefore, these businesses already have plenty of passersby, which use Route 73 everyday in order to commute to and from a number of different areas. Third, the two "detours" that I suggested are so minor in nature that I cannot imagine any individual being able to stay away from the smooth, refreshing, and delightful ice cream found at Jenn and Jesse's for any real length of time.
How is an intersection that has only had two deaths in over a decade considered "dangerous"?!
With Jens plan someone who wants to go to Jenn and Jessie's restaurant or someones house or one of the other business's there on route 73 and is coming from route 662 would have to drive all the way into Oley and then double back onto rte. 73 or drive to Breezy Corners and come down 73. That makes no sense at all and would hurt any business's along that route. It would basically be like making a detour.
The ONLY plan that makes sense is doing nothing at all and leave things as they are!! This is not a dangerous intersection with those straight sightlines it has. Any intersection is dangerous when someone gets impatient and pulls out in front of someone!
Unfortunately, this poll does not include two of the most logical solutions to the deadly Route 73 and 662 split. The easiest, safest, and most cost effective solutions: restrict these dangerous connecting roads to "one way traffic only," therefore, no longer permitting traffic from 662 to turn onto 73, and exclusively allowing drivers to bear off of Route 73 onto 662 - OR - shut down and completely close off these connecting roads. Drivers can simply turn at the traffic light by King's/Weis (Friedensburg Road and Route 73 Oley, Pa) and, in a mere 1000 feet, continue onto Main Street which directly turns into 662 - or - drivers can easily stay on Route 73 until they come to the following traffic light by the Redner's gas station (Route 12/Pricetown Road and Route 73) and turn there instead. Putting stop signs on Route 73 is madness. Tractor trailers will never be able to even reach 25 mph if they have to stop before the 1 mile hill up to Breezy Corners as well as their inability to stop coming from the other direction, down that very same hill, during icy weather or snowstorms - not to mention the unbelievable traffic back up that will result from ineffective, superfluous stop signs. In fact, it was failure to properly stop at reasonably posted stop signs that caused this particular intersection to be viewed as so incredibly dangerous in the first place.
I am very sorry for Marc's family and anyone else who has been injured/killed here but people drive way too fast on that road and also people do not obey stop signs. Drivers must be responsible for their actions. Stop, look and don't trust turn signals. A stop sign/traffic light will increase rear end collisions plus people disregard them all the time. Watch a red light sometime: 3-4 cars go through the yellow/red light, they only slow down at stop signs if they even do that. Maybe more police action (and yes I know the police are busy) and heavier fines?? The real answer is for driver responsibility. I think people study for the test then forget the rules when they leave the driver center.
SLOW DOWN, BUCKLE UP AND OBEY THE RULES.
God Bless Marc's family.
If a decision is made to do anything at the intersection, then it should be a light. Otherwise, leave it alone. Forget the stop signs,, that will make matters worse.
If they can install a light on 662 after the east split with 73 near Bertolet Mill Rd, Deturk Rd and Mine Lane, they can install a light where Marc was killed. This light was installed only for construction and I, along with many residents of Oley, are confused why the light is even being used.