Should Treasure Coast governments spend taxpayers' money to fight All Aboard Florida?

24 Comments

  • Paul Harrison - 9 years ago

    Kelly G - This poll is organized and moderated by TCPalm, as you can clearly see from the box on the top right (not to mention the fact they're promoting it.) TCPalm is the main news outlet on the Treasure Coast, and has a heavy (to the point in my view of being extreme) anti-AAF bias. They are highly unlikely to be skewing the votes towards "No", that contradicts everything they've been pushing.

    My guess about why this poll seems to contradict other anti-AAF polling:

    - People are usually asked if they "Support" AAF or not. Saying "No" to that question can mean anything from "OMG! Killer trains all about freight agenda 21 taxpayer's money disruption!!!1?111" to "I can't imagine enough people will take it for it to be a commercial success, I think they are wasting their money doing this."
    - I suspect the "OMG" mob is over-represented in the media largely because TCPalm keeps pushing their agenda. Most of those saying they don't support AAF are probably of the "It'll never work" variety, especially as the arguments from the "OMG" mob are mostly absurd.
    - The "It'll never work" people aren't likely to be in favor of governments banning a business because that business might not work. At best they may be anti taxpayer's money being spent on the project, but, well, the taxpaper no longer has even the tenuous connection to AAF that it once had, now AAF has dropped RRIF.

    If I'm right, Treasure Coast politicians (and media) have seriously misjudged the local electorate and are likely to get a surprise at the next election if they follow through with the lawsuits and other threats.

  • jim - 9 years ago

    Why would AAF pay people to sit and vote on a poll that means NOTHING! You admit you voted numerous times. This is not up for a vote, this is a private company building on their own property. Was your house built before or after the railroad was built? If it was after, you moved in knowingly near choo choo, and it is your neighbor, so play nice!

  • Marty - 9 years ago

    Kelly,

    It is simpletons like you that skew these things. Did you ever think that we don't want our tax money wasted? Where do you think this money comes from, if there is a shortfall, our taxes go up. Not to mention, maybe more people want AAF then you think!

  • Kelly G - 9 years ago

    How is it that I have repeatedly voted yes numerous times each day for supporting this expense and the only numbers increasing are for the one who are against this. I must admit AAF
    has hired quite a group of Miami college supporters to sit by thier computers and continually vote on this survey.

    Really wish this survey represented our concerned citizens.

  • Pat Fleming - 9 years ago

    It is totally obsurd to waste taxpayer dollars to feed hungry lawyers to fight All Aboard Florida. Build more fire stations, hire more firefighters, and police officers.

  • Binht - 9 years ago

    Polls don't lie. It's clear now that NOBODY WANTS TO WASTE PRECIOUS TAX DOLLARS ON FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS save for a few crackpots. All this will do is feed the greedy lawyers.

  • Bob Webster - 9 years ago

    Just did a little common sense analysis.

    Objectors claim that 32 more AAF trains will create a traffic nightmare and devastate our county.

    Well, at the height of the Florida building boom in 2006, FEC ran 10 more trains a day... and they averaged about 1.6 miles in length vs. the 900 foot length of an AAF train. 10 trains of 1.6 mile length is 16 miles of trains. 32 trains of 900' length is less than 5.5 miles. So the 32 new AAF trains will add back one-third of the train length that was running over the FEC nine years ago. FEC could operate 20 trains per day (an increase in six over current schedules) in addition to the 32 AAF trains and still have less daily train length operating than ran in 2006. Where's the "existential threat" or "devastation" objectors like to trumpet?

    Each 900' AAF train takes just over 6 seconds to cross a road crossing. Gate operation time is about 40 seconds (30 seconds before the train arrives, gates close and it takes 10 seconds for them to open immediately after a train clears the road crossing). That's 46 seconds. Let's call it 50 seconds to allow for slower operating speeds and any other variables.

    At 50 seconds per train, all 32 AAF trains will create 26 minutes, 40 seconds, of traffic stoppage for each road crossing. Counting all the crossings in Sebastian and Vero Beach, Indian River County has 32 rail crossings in its road system along the FEC mainline. The total daily traffic stoppage for all 32 AAF trains over all 32 crossings in the county comes to just 853 minutes, 20 seconds, per day. You think that's a lot?

    Consider that EVERY traffic signal in the county stops traffic in one or the other directions 24 hours a day. That's 1440 minutes per day for just a single traffic signal, or 69% more than all 32 AAF trains for all 32 county rail crossings!

    And there are about 150 traffic signals in the county creating 216000 minutes of traffic stoppage every day.

    853.33 minutes vs. 216,000 minutes (14 hours-13 seconds vs 3,600 hours) of traffic stoppage each day.

    So the totality of daily traffic stoppage per day for AAF is just under 0.4% of the total daily traffic stoppage for all traffic signals in the county.

    Kinda puts things in the proper perspective, doesn't it?

    When's the last time a Commissioner resisted adding a new traffic signal on the basis that it's contribution to traffic stoppage (congestion) would create an "existential issue" that would "devastate" our quality of life in the county?

    Do IRC Commissioners have any really good reasons why they should spend nearly $3,000,000 to fight a project that will (1) significantly improve crossing safety, (2) eliminate train horns, (3) reduce noise and vibration from trains (particularly freights), (4) reduce train transit time through a crossing (higher speeds), (5) offer the potential for a future passenger transit station for county residents, and (6) improve property values for all of the above benefits?

    And please, no phony claims about traffic congestion and grossly exaggerated estimates of future numbers of trains. And please, no lies about new transit stations being prohibited by the lease agreement for the new rail corridor along FL 528 between Cocoa and Orlando (on which freight is prohibited by that agreement). And especially avoid embarrassing yourself by claiming AAF is really some nefarious scheme of the FEC to spend vastly more than it needs to for expanded freight operations.

    With AAF, quality of life is improved. Stop AAF and quality of life is preserved. Hmmm. Which course is better?

  • Jonathan Nelson - 9 years ago

    How asinine and rediculas.. Don't these nimsys have anything better to do than waist their own taxpayer's money on a frivolous lawsuit regarding something that is progressive, needed, and environmentally sound?
    That Railroad has every right to run it's trains.It was there first in 1895. Would all of the idiots in those counties please move to Tallahassee. You'll fit right in!

  • Paul Harrison - 9 years ago

    I predicted a while ago that the campaign against AAF would start to run into real opposition once it started down the road of frivolous lawsuits. That the forced-driving lobby would think persuading local governments to spend taxpayers money on lawsuits was a good idea was unexpected.

    The truth is that by and large Treasure Coast media and politicians have no idea what locals actual views on the train are. Most want a service that stops here. Many see that AAF is a long term way to get it. Some are opposed simply because it won't bring service on day 1. Only a tiny minority are actually anti-rail altogether. That minority is loud. But politicians who pander to them to the point of making it a major issue, such as Beverly Hires, have lost dreadfully. We don't know how a pro-AAF politician would fare because, scared of TCPalm and the local political establishment, none have been willing to support it publicly.

    Locals are also, mostly, right wing in the best way - anti-government, pro-personal-responsibility. Taxpayer's money being spent on preventing a local business from creating jobs, bringing in tax revenues, and reducing the need to spend money on roads, because it might be a minor inconvenience to some is never going to go down well. Private lawsuits trying to abuse the law to stop the project would be unpopular too.

    As long as the local political establishment is convinced locals are anti-rail, they'll continue this absurd campaign and continue to waste public dollars that could be spent on implementing quiet zones or building a few bridges. The lawsuit budgets might be a wake-up call to some who'd previously ignored the issue. Shame there's no election coming up.

  • Auld Sodger - 9 years ago

    Derek H has made an excellent point by suggesting that the community funds of $4.1 M be spent to improve grade crossings. My guess is that you could get a Federal grant (highway) to match these funds, perhaps as much as ten federal dollars for every one state/community dollar (and get the state to also match local funds). This could get you several grade separations and pay for a station platform or two.

    I don't really know my Florida history like I should but aren't the railroads the reason everyone is in Florida and doing so well? Didn't a guy named Flagler make it possible for everyone to come down here, have a good time and make a lot of money? And, in most cases, the communities grew up along the railroad, not the other way around. Railroads (passenger and freight), like highways, water ways, and airway, are an essential part of our transportation infrastructure. We can't have a vibrant economy/way of life without them. For example, how do we get Tropicana Orange Juice to NYC? 40 years ago the DOT took almost 1000 feet of my road frontage 40' deep to widen a highway and then the county made me pay an assessment for water and sewer lines -- and this was valuable farmland (and did not need water and sewer). They did not pay me a dime.Said it was for the common good. Later, I sold about 25 percent of it (non frontage) for more than its entire value just a few years before. No telling what the rest is worth.

  • Truthsayer - 9 years ago

    Peter hessian, do you have any CLUE what you're talking about? The entire line will be RESTORED to double track -- as it was until the 1980s -- and by Federal Mandate PTC must also be installed. You are obviously an example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

    Why is it that everyone who speaks against this project has NO clue about how it will even work?

  • Eric - 9 years ago

    Will these trains ever turn a profit? Or is this just going to be another investment oppurtunity for a few while the taxpayers who have to pay for this make the few involved rich?

  • Dale - 9 years ago

    Been watching this for several hours. You can vote multiple times but TC Palm is deleting the duplicate NO votes but not the YES. WHAT A SCAM!!!

  • Derek H. - 9 years ago

    Sorry folks the tracks are never going to be moved. It is actually kind of funny when you think of it. The people who live near the tracks are fighting tooth and nail to stop the extra trains and want the tracks moved away so they are not bothered by trains. So let suspend reality for awhile and think about the suggestion to move the tracks out of town. First off the cost would be prohibitive. The railroad already has its tracks and doesn't need to move so this will have to be 100% tax payer funded. Figure around $2 million a mile for flat straight track for earthwork and track materials. Likely going to need a lot of double track so now that costs $4 million a mile. Florida has a lot of swampy ground so the cost per mile of earthwork will likely be a lot higher. This doesn't buy you any signal systems or bridges (remember those swampy areas). Going to need overpasses for roadways. Going to need years of EPA studies and millions for the consultants before any work can start. Those studies are going to point to the swampy areas and need new areas created to replace the delicate ecosystems lost. There is likely some endangered mosquito who lives in the swampy area. Going to need a few million to study how this will effect that mosquito. Owners of the land that is proposed for the new railroad are not going to want to sell. Lawyers are going to fight and make a lot of money. Remember the longer the fight the more they make. They people who live near the tracks arnt going to want to hear the trains (sound familiar?) and will also fight.
    Sounds like a huge waste of tax payer money to me.

    Now the other option is a private company wants to use it's own money to better their own property. Yes there will be more trains but the 30+ are going to be passenger trains that are moving 80-110 mph so they will clear crossings quickly. The 4 million already set aside to fight AAF could be spent to make crossings safer or as a down payment on a bridge or two. $4 million would be a good start on making quite zones that would benefit the locals who are complaining about train noise.

    Still want to fight AAF. Ok you can do that. The local representation is listening and that is why there is $4 million set aside. To me it just seems like a huge waste of money. The tracks are not going to be moved so the long slow freights will always be there. May as well get AAF improve the railroad.

    As far as saving lives. Don't walk on tracks! Don't try and beat the train! If your car breaks down and stops on the tracks GET OUT! Don't pull onto the tracks if there isn't room on the other side! Trains don't kill people. People get themselves killed by being someplace they shouldn't.
    Every Fire/EMS will have alternate routes ready if a crossing is blocked.

  • Joyce Mason - 9 years ago

    Yes, definitely. Our governments and representatives should do everything possible to stop these trains from going through our cities and towns on the east coast. If this becomes a reality, it will devastate our beautiful cities by the sea and our way of life will forever be ruined.

  • Ken Clark - 9 years ago

    The FEC has the standing to operate as many trains as they would like and can handle on their existing property. Hey folks, this is a private tax-paying company that operates in compliance with all of the Federal rules (which override any local or state regulation).

    So if we don't like a certain car dealer, or supermarket, or hotel are we going to use the government to shut them down too? Maybe we should start tearing down people's homes if we don't like them too!

  • Steve - 9 years ago

    I believe All Aboard Florida high speed passenger trains are just a coverup for expanded freight traffic along the east coast of Florida. With the Panama Canal being widened and a new canal being builit in Nicaragua, Miami will become an important port of entry to the United States. Much of the cargo will be offloaded onto trains, travelling up the east coast of Florida. We have already seen what can happen along seemingly safe crossings, when trains strike stranded vehicles as in Connecticut. And we have seen what happens when a freight train derails as in West Virginia with the huge fire and evacuation of surrounding areas.

    The Treasure Coast is a densely populated area. The current tracks separate communities from police, fire department and hospitals. Current freight trains with 100+ cars, take at least 5 minutes to pass a crossing.This could mean the difference between life and death. With increased freight and passenger service, it does not make sense to use existing tracks which cross many local roads, go through downtown areas, and over marine bridges. What makes sense is to build new tracks or use existing tracks in less populated areas that are built to high speed specifications and can handle the speed of trains today and of the future with minimal disruption to the communities along the coast. Current tracks should be used for local freight traffic only or should be turned over to communities as bike or hiking paths ie rails to trails. I am in favor of high speed rail, however it needs to be done right. Talk from communities of supporting the project if a stop is included for passenger service, ignores safety and other community issues and should be abandoned.

  • julie williams - 9 years ago

    It will cost us as taxpayer a hell of lot more money in liability, crossing upkeep and quiet Zones!! Move the train!!!

  • Peggy Ann Fisher - 9 years ago

    Yes! Our governments should do everything possible to make AAF move the tracks west away from our fragile, beautiful seaside communities.

  • Peter hessian - 9 years ago

    I believe this is a scam. You can't run a passenger service on single track territory with manual block rules in effect. Also sharing this track with freight trains, I can't see this even coming close to working efficiently.

  • TED - 9 years ago

    Those that vote no, either have no need to cross the tracks, or they don't live within earshot of the tracks. Of course they would vote no. Why spend a few million dollars to maybe save only a few lives.

  • Bob Webster - 9 years ago

    Why spend a fortune to prevent safer crossings, less crossing delays, better travel options, no mere train horns, each of which would improve our quality of life? The proposal is frivolous and a waste of tax dollars.

  • fra conn - 9 years ago

    another feel good waste of taxpayer money look up how many anti rr suits have not gone in rrs favor this money would be better spent on working with rr.s to mitagate conflicts ,hold areas for trains so they would not block crossings which by the way could be closed legaly anytime rr wanted to its a private right of way and force countys to build overpasses we live in a modern world what a bunch of NIMBYS who think life will end in palm beach county the csx,fec tracks are less than a mile apart in places have 3 main tracks over 50 trains a day and very little impact on residents so get the FACTS first ps even if the idiots go to the supreme ct interstate system will win typical stupid pollitions pandering to loud mouth NIMBYS same fools who delayed 2nd palm city bridge roosevelt brd etc

  • Freeman - 9 years ago

    Your polling site is not fraud free, you need better security to avoid persons from
    voting more than once...Take it down or fix it as the results will not be valid...I voted twice just
    to see ...

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